Are kubelwagens OP

the usf has access to light vehicles . their is no excuse for it to completely fuck up your early game.
most usf and soviet players however completely overextend themselves and have not learned to be defensive while you pump out the adequate counters.

The earliest USF light vehicle would probably still be the WC51, at 1 CP. You're already way behind at this point. Outside of the pretty meh at the moment Mechanized doctrine, their earliest light vehicle is the M20, which runs a total of 70 fuel to get (teching+vehicle cost). That's about 5 minutes in if you actually managed to hold your fuel point.

Allies (especially USF) being defensive in the early game is a loss. USF doesn't have a super unit that can come out and turn the game around in the late game. If you don't win the early game as USF you're going to lose unless your opponent makes gigantic mistakes.

just revert it to pre patch

just revert it to pre patch

Ok, but the sturmpios too.

Sturmpios are already better than last patch. There is something wrong with your playstyle with them.
But anyway, let's do like you say, let's nerf the Kubel and Sturmpios if it makes you happy!

Sturmpios are already better than last patch. There is something wrong with your playstyle with them.
But anyway, let's do like you say, let's nerf the Kubel and Sturmpios if it makes you happy!

Yep, I know I know what the paper say, but almost all of unit to unit confrontations on the field are made from the range on which sturmpios' damage was nerfed. Going into close combat will make you lose models, staying at a to high range will make you kill less models and in to much time.
Let's be honest abut that, pios were shredding infantry from middle distance from safe cover and that was better.

Yep, I know I know what the paper say, but almost all of unit to unit confrontations on the field are made from the range on which sturmpios' damage was nerfed. Going into close combat will make you lose models, staying at a to high range will make you kill less models and in to much time.
Let's be honest abut that, pios were shredding infantry from middle distance from safe cover and that was better.

why was that better? because you could just move them into the enemy and win every early fight?

The earliest USF light vehicle would probably still be the WC51, at 1 CP. You're already way behind at this point. Outside of the pretty meh at the moment Mechanized doctrine, their earliest light vehicle is the M20, which runs a total of 70 fuel to get (teching+vehicle cost). That's about 5 minutes in if you actually managed to hold your fuel point.

Allies (especially USF) being defensive in the early game is a loss. USF doesn't have a super unit that can come out and turn the game around in the late game. If you don't win the early game as USF you're going to lose unless your opponent makes gigantic mistakes.

yeah that still a better situation what ostheer faces during maxim spam l2p and use the buildings and stall them.

They are not OP, they are glass vehicles that get absolutely murdered if you don't micro. Their pathing is still horrible for the most part, Maxims tear through them, as does any small arms fire, let conscripts get close and say hello to their devastating AT nades.

Germans have had to put up with Maxim spam with mortar support, and fighting position nades/mgs...now allies have to put up with kubels which are only viable early game.

They are not OP, they are glass vehicles that get absolutely murdered if you don't micro. Their pathing is still horrible for the most part, Maxims tear through them, as does any small arms fire, let conscripts get close and say hello to their devastating AT nades.

Germans have had to put up with Maxim spam with mortar support, and fighting position nades/mgs...now allies have to put up with kubels which are only viable early game.

Well, I don't consider backing up that much micro.

AT NADES!?!?!? What are they? 125mp and 25 fuel just to counter an early Kubel that costs no fuel!?!?!. The Kubel is going to shut you down already before you even get that upgrade.

Last week in the Relic Stream it was pointed out that the Kübelwagen will receive a nerf, cost increase whatever....
So guys calm down, stop this fanboi war.

Last week in the Relic Stream it was pointed out that the Kübelwagen will receive a nerf, cost increase whatever....
So guys calm down, stop this fanboi war.

Link please (not because I am questioning your credibility but I would like to know what relic has to say as well

AT NADES!?!?!? What are they? 125mp and 25 fuel just to counter an early Kubel that costs no fuel!?!?!.

Which is why a fuel cost for the Kubel would help mitigate this disparity, especially since AT nades are the one upgrade that makes Cons semi-useful into the late game.

Maxim is also fairly mobile, also unsuppressable (you can suppress but it'll still shoot) and had such low reinforce costs, the bleed was negligible. Now the Kubel has appeared, people who defended the Maxim are complaining. Yet I have not seen even 1 replay with 6-8 Kubels and I've seen dozens with that many Maxims.

Because the Soviets have great counters to the Kubel.

A suppressed or pinned maxim is useless. It'll do severely reduced damage and suppression and won't re-position. The manpower bleed is still 15MP per model, to 0 per hitpoint done to a kubel. It still has a tear down time. It still requires he gunners to hop about as they get picked off. Maxims have all the weaknesses that the Kubel does not. And its the absence of those weaknesses that is 100% of the problem with the kubel.

As for the counters: They do. But not in any timely fashion. Buying at AT gun unit one is just -begging- for it to get stolen, and At nades require you catching the kubel (super speedy kubel says NOPE), guards require multiple CP's. Mines are a crap shot.

M3's are your only real option, and frankly, I love it when they try. Volks get shrecks nice and fast, and between a sturmpio squad and the kubel you can mince that bucket of bolts pretty fast. Oh, and racketens take no tier building, unlike soviet At guns (or god forbid USF At guns)

You got some magic solution I don't know of?

"If the kubel was just recon, utility and light damage, it would be fine."

Strange I've never seen you or any soviet-biased player (I'm axis biased, sure) say this about the M3HT. That unit has cost this game more players than any other. minimum fun maximum frustration.

The AA Half Track requires the purchasing of a tier, and then saving another 60 fuel. By the time IT arrives, there are heavy AT options available. It's also less mobile than the kubel. And costs fuel. Did I mention it costs a lot of fuel? It's just a squishy American Ostwind.

Then give soviets AT nades at the start...

While I am a very Axis based player, I have been around since beta and have seen a lot of the FOTM tactics throughout the timespan. Kubels are no worse than the old soviet clowncar that we've always had to deal with, except they can't cap points since you can't put squads in them.

A suppressed or pinned maxim is useless. It'll do severely reduced damage and suppression and won't re-position. The manpower bleed is still 15MP per model, to 0 per hitpoint done to a kubel. It still has a tear down time. It still requires he gunners to hop about as they get picked off. Maxims have all the weaknesses that the Kubel does not. And its the absence of those weaknesses that is 100% of the problem with the kubel.

As for the counters: They do. But not in any timely fashion. Buying at AT gun unit one is just -begging- for it to get stolen, and At nades require you catching the kubel (super speedy kubel says NOPE), guards require multiple CP's. Mines are a crap shot.

M3's are your only real option, and frankly, I love it when they try. Volks get shrecks nice and fast, and between a sturmpio squad and the kubel you can mince that bucket of bolts pretty fast. Oh, and racketens take no tier building, unlike soviet At guns (or god forbid USF At guns)

You got some magic solution I don't know of?

It seems you fail to understand that the maxim and the m3 are softcounters and not hardcounters. the defintly work vs the kubel and vice versa. it simply a matter of skill between the 2 players that determine who will make most use of it. when you say something like shrekked volks as a counter i can guess your ability is not that high. why do you attacks kubel supported by a shrekked volks? is that volks permanently attached to the kuble? can you not drive it away before you nail the kubel?

against maxim spam i have to be really careful with my 222 when i hunt maxims . one at nade mine or guards wull quickly wreck a lot of mp/fuel. so i need to pick of the ones that are isolated.

It seems you fail to understand that the maxim and the m3 are softcounters and not hardcounters. the defintly work vs the kubel and vice versa. it simply a matter of skill between the 2 players that determine who will make most use of it. when you say something like shrekked volks as a counter i can guess your ability is not that high. why do you attacks kubel supported by a shrekked volks? is that volks permanently attached to the kuble? can you not drive it away before you nail the kubel?

against maxim spam i have to be really careful with my 222 when i hunt maxims . one at nade mine or guards wull quickly wreck a lot of mp/fuel. so i need to pick of the ones that are isolated.

How hard is it to understand that I'm talking about this from an OKW perspective?

The maxim isn't a counter at all. Once the kubel suppresses it, it can drive away/swap target and let the sturmpios you start the game with chew maxim up for dinner.

The M3 is a counter but is very unreliable, slow as ass and turns like a brick these days.

So what if you drive the M3 away? Congrats, you saved your M3 but still have no map control, the kubel will be repaired in seconds and you still have the exact same problem you had before.

And the OKW player will still retain the advantage in MP bleed and mobility and map control.

Kubels are too good. Period.

Link please (not because I am questioning your credibility but I would like to know what relic has to say as well

The Q&A starts around 01:02:00 and they start to talk about the Kübelwagen around 01:11:55.

The Q&A with pquemish is in general always interesting imo, so I recommend watching it.

http://www.twitch.tv/relicentertainment/b/569893226

Kubel isn't OP, it's actually pretty balanced in my book. I'm saying it from USF perspective, i can deal with kubel fairly well.

Kubel isn't OP, it's actually pretty balanced in my book. I'm saying it from USF perspective, i can deal with kubel fairly well.

replay?