My thoughts & ideas on Conscripts

Alright, fine.

Cons get a 7th man at Vet3, in exchange for the loss of merge and their reinforce cost per man going up to 22 Manpower.

Happy?

You seem quite focused on keeping Conscripts as utter garbage that Soviet players must pay the exact same amount of resources (sans 1 popcap and a perfectly optional 60 MU upgrade that Grenadiers can compete with in a 1v1 basis--2 Grens v. 2 Cons, properly microed Grens will win every time) for as an Ostheer player.

Germans start with 15?
Fuel: 10 15 25 + 45 55
MP: 80 120 160 + 200 200

150fuel (135) + 760mp for T1+T2+T3 Rnade+LMG at BP1 n FHT BP2
_______________

Soviets starts with 50
Fuel: 40/50 + 120 + 25 + 25
MP: 120/160 + 240 + 125 + 125

210/220fuel (160/170) + 570/610mp T1/T2 + T3/T4 + AT nades + Molotovs

_________________________________________

On another subject:


Guard Rifle (PPSH + Guards) and Shock Army (PPSH + shocks) wants some words with you

Yes, but these doctrines are balanced out by other features which still proves my point.

You seem quite focused on keeping Conscripts as utter garbage

Stop it with the ad hominem.

I'm here to challenge and critique, as constructively and objectively as possible, the different suggestions presented here for how to resolve the topics issue.

Ive discussed with just about everyone who has taken the time to make a coherent framework for a proposal in this thread. Can you say the same? No.

A normal reaction is to say "Hey, nice that you care enough about my suggestion to take the time to look it over and analyze it a bit and give me feedback on what might be some shortcomings in it that need adjusting". The purpose of discussion is to get that feedback, not to find a circlejerk of people who agree with you no matter what you say.

Just because yours did not go down well, or you didn't "like" my critique and analysis of it, is no reason to start taking it personally, and your posts have been filled with that kind of emotional crap.

Its just a game. This is just balance discussion. Nobody needs the personal crap. Drop it, please.

^I'm making an observation, not calling you the mother of all anti-Conscript tinfoil hat-wearing Axis fanboys bar none--if I was, I'd call you the mother of all anti-Conscript tinfoil hat-wearing Axis fanboys bar none!

Omg this topic.
Please play something else than Soviet from time to time to understand the bigger picture.
Everyone is arguing how Cons are weak completely neglecting the fact of Soviet Elite infantry.
Yes, let's make Cons equal to lmg Greens so they can fight equal battle so latter we can stomp everything with veted Shocks.

I'm telling you here and now that weapon upgrade will never happened because Relic took the commander approach to implement this so you don't have access to good late game Cons and Elite infantry at the same time.

The only change we can talk about is veterancy change so they are more resiliant but I think this is sorted already by 6 men squad.


Request to give Cons some kind of weapon upgrade appeared almost at the release of the game and Relic still didn't implemented this so there is a small chance of this happening.
What's more they specifically said that Cons aren't supposed to scale well late game which means that the whole faction has been designed around that. Any change to this requires complete re balance to the whole Soviet faction so I'd really be surprised if they decided to change this especially that Soviets are pretty well balanced right now and I'd rather expect some nerfs rather than buffs.


I liked how my comment that Soviet got more starting fuel to offset for the molotov and AT nade upgrade was ignored.

I really would like to read what Siberian had in mind regarding the subject though.

Click on my playercard and tell me I only play Soviets. Cmon, don't be shy. And why don't you produce your own playercard before attacking anyone else's anyway?

Give Soviets more starting fuel, and it will probably be used to tech to T-34s even faster, or hold it out for the call-ins. I'd rather have both molotovs and AT nades merged in one upgrade, for say 200/25 if we have to go this route.

The solution is not for conscripts to be able to 1v1 LMG grens. I don't think anyone proposed that. The solution is to make them less shit late game. Because they are shit late game. I play all 4 factions, and conscripts are by far the core infantry that scales the worst. I still use my grens late game to fight. I still use my rifles to fight (as if I had a choice but anyway). I still use my Volks to grenade stuff and shreck tanks. My conscripts run around, cap something if there's no opposition, lose half the squad while throwing an AT nade, retreat, rinse and repeat. I shouldn't be able to fight all game with them, since Soviets have lots of infantry options, but they should be at least able to hold their ground somewhat at vet 3 against anything scarier than pioneers, and they can't.

I do agree an additional weapon upgrade is very unlikely. Relic won't implement stuff like that now. I favor either reducing their reinforce cost at T3-T4, or giving them better veterancy at vet 2 and 3. The latter proposal is both the easiest to implement, and the one we're the most likely to see.

I really don't understand why anyone would be against a late-game conscript buff.

That's like me being against an ostruppen mid/late game buff. They suck ass and I never see them, which is a shame because they could be a neat change of pace instead of LMG gren spam into panzer 4s.

Really though, it's just these same 2 guys trying to put the kibosh on every thread/idea that might be positive for a soviet player. To call them a vocal minority would be an insult to minorities.

People who don't want a stale meta need to understand that there are entire doctrines without elite infantry. Thus it has no bearing on cons performance. That's like saying riflemen are op because airborne exist. Or that OKW should only need volks and sturms.

Saying merge is balanced against the ability to get LMGs is akin to claiming salvage is better to have then shocks body armor thus sturms and shocks are balanced.

I really don't understand why anyone would be against a late-game conscript buff.

Really though, it's just these same 2 guys trying to put the kibosh on every thread/idea that might be positive for a soviet player. To call them a vocal minority would be an insult to minorities.

I'm not against a late-game conscript buff.
I'm just against your proposal because its shit, frankly.

So in the meantime I'm watching, discussing and hoping for better solutions from others.
And there has been progress there.

I like going Soviet Industry often.

Wtf am i supposed to do against LMG grens?

And this is why Soviets have to spam maxims... even when grenadiers can rifle grenade the gunner, and walk out of the cone as the squad decides who will be the next gunner.

But it doesnt matter as they all die.

I'm not against a late-game conscript buff.
I'm just against your proposal because its shit, frankly.

So in the meantime I'm watching, discussing and hoping for better solutions.

Your proposals are also pretty shit and makes a Soviet player feel cheated. I would feel cheated if i had half my abilities in order to have a chance at combatting other squads with all their abilities, meaning they are still better.

Why cant grens lose the rifle grenade and/or panzerfaust when they upgrade to lmg42? Why cant the lmg42 be... doctrinal for slightly cheaper? Thatll also balance cons vs grens.

Your proposals are also pretty shit and makes a Soviet player feel cheated.

Thats your prerogative to think so.

However, I think you have missed several of my posts and should re-read the thread.
My proposals on Cons has changed as the thread develops.
My proposal on Penals however is still the same.

I'm not trying to "cheat" anyone. I don't require or expect you to understand or accept my view on the Merge/Oorah issue in relation to a weapon upgrade, if that is what you are referring to, but you really should actually read the posts you seem to have missed before posting to about matters that have already been resolved in them.

Be honest, did you even read this before you posted?
http://www.coh2.org/topic/22935/my-thoughts-&-ideas-on-conscripts/post/207731

Late game survivability increase by veterancy. I'm up for that.

Be honest, did you even read this before you posted?
http://www.coh2.org/topic/22935/my-thoughts-&-ideas-on-conscripts/post/207731

I seriously got bored of reading your posts, so I stopped after a while and skimmed the rest.

But I actually read that post, and I don't really mind that suggestion.

Your proposals are also pretty shit and makes a Soviet player feel cheated.

I was getting very annoyed, sorry for that.

Yes, but these doctrines are balanced out by other features which still proves my point.

No, it doesn´t prove your point.

"I'm telling you here and now that weapon upgrade will never happened because Relic took the commander approach to implement this so you don't have access to good late game Cons and Elite infantry at the same time. "

If your point was: you can´t have Elite infantry and Tanks...Guard Motor and Shock Rifle...
Your point should be: you can´t have escalable conscripts, Elite infantry AND tanks...well yes.

I like going Soviet Industry often.
Wtf am i supposed to do against LMG grens?

Snipers. You need something which doesn´t bleed you mp.

No, it doesn´t prove your point.

"I'm telling you here and now that weapon upgrade will never happened because Relic took the commander approach to implement this so you don't have access to good late game Cons and Elite infantry at the same time. "

If your point was: you can´t have Elite infantry and Tanks...Guard Motor and Shock Rifle...
Your point should be: you can´t have escalable conscripts, Elite infantry AND tanks...well yes.

That's the only feature that's good about these doctrines. They don't come with any kind of heavy tank or different unit that will make them stand out and that's a balancing factor itself. In fact they are so good I forgot they existed.

I feel the need to get involved in this thread again.

The more I think about it I believe little can be done to Conscripts to make them scale late game the same way Volks, LMG Grens, and Rifle's do. Call it defeatist but until the game designers recognize there is a problem nothing will change.

With that being said I believe changing Penal's is the absolute way to go.
Remove their flame thrower and for a single DP-28 upgrade unlocked once a T3 or T4 building is up. I would envision that their damage profile would look an awful lot like my favorite infantry unit, the Panzerfussilers.

The Soviet's now have their all star mid-long range unit without having to change much else.

Hmm i dont know about this one. Soviets get guards and shocks at 2cps. you should only be making two con squads MAX. Couple shocks/Guards with maxim spam and Zis guns.

You can counter everything. I suggest suvivability buff with vet, and thats it

You can't hedge on a strategy that smells of cheese forever. I suspect the Maxim is going to get fucked hard this coming patch.

Also, you can't say Guards and Shocks. You get Guards OR Shocks and thats only if you select a Commander with those units.

I feel the need to get involved in this thread again.

The more I think about it I believe little can be done to Conscripts to make them scale late game the same way Volks, LMG Grens, and Rifle's do. Call it defeatist but until the game designers recognize there is a problem nothing will change.

With that being said I believe changing Penal's is the absolute way to go.
Remove their flame thrower and for a single DP-28 upgrade unlocked once a T3 or T4 building is up. I would envision that their damage profile would look an awful lot like my favorite infantry unit, the Panzerfussilers.

The Soviet's now have their all star mid-long range unit without having to change much else.

oh i disagree that volks scale to late game they are nothing more then meatshields at this point. but yes you are correct the solution are the penals.

Late game survivability increase by veterancy. I'm up for that.

I also agree with that. For example riflemans in CoH1 how many times did u see vet 3 riflemans in CoH1? Not many times but once they hit vet 3 they become beasts. Infantry fight in CoH1 was more excited than in CoH2 but that´s only my opinion. To see vet 3 unit on the field should be less common as it is right now in CoH2 as for the germans or for the russians.