Panzergrenadier rework

Well i have tried using panzergrenadiers only to have them fail spectacularly most of the time.Their dmg output is very good but they never get to use it as models drop too fast.This is the main problem i'm seeing with pz grens,it loses one member before usually coming into optimal range(not charging just entering medium range) and that 25% of its DPS gone.Here is main difference with LMG squads where the lmg stays with the squad till the last model and can maintain a good DPS.

The only medium-close range squad still performing excellently are shocks at just 50 mp more - mainly because of armor,smoke but most of all because of 6 members.

I think panzergrenadiers be given 5 models instead of 4 to reduce the DPS drop off problem.Overall DPS should remain the same..but 1 model increased to circumvate this problem.To keep overall DPS same either it can be spread out between 5 members instead of 4,or one pistol armed guy can be added who basically does no dmg..but when one model is killed the remaining 4 get the stg 44s(meaning if pistol guy is killed no problem..but if stg guy is killed pistol guy picks up stg 44).
This would keep their dmg same but increase their much needed survivability and give wehrmacht another infantry unit to use as it currently has nothing save grenadiers.And revive this extinct unit.

The thing you aren't taking into account is how this will effect Pgrens aggainst tanks. They are already able to do a ton of damage if they get in range. This would be a significant buff against tanks.

The thing you aren't taking into account is how this will effect Pgrens aggainst tanks. They are already able to do a ton of damage if they get in range. This would be a significant buff against tanks.

What is the difference against tanks of 3PG +2PG with Shrecks and 2PG + 2PG with Shrecks ? They would be harder to kill, sure, but their damage wouldn't change versus armor.

What is the difference against tanks of 3PG +2PG with Shrecks and 2PG + 2PG with Shrecks ? They would be harder to kill, sure, but their damage wouldn't change versus armor.

This.

How about improving their received accuracy? Their main problem is their wekness, they disappear to fast . That way they won't need the fifth man.

Shocks don't perform at medium range.

I like JohnnyBs' suggestion. If I remember correctly, Pgrens had a better received accuracy modifier when their armor got removed but it became smaller some patches ago.

How about improving their received accuracy? Their main problem is their wekness, they disappear to fast . That way they won't need the fifth man.

I don't dig in the game's data so i may be saying bullshit there, but i think Relic decided to normalize received accuracy across different infantry squads. And in the operation, PGs lost a lot.

I think PGs and Wehrmacht Panthers are the 2 hot topics which require adjusting in the faction. Both of them aren't used but should be. Tier2's infantry should be good, and not be outshined by Tier1's one (be it a cost revision, a 5th squad member with adjusting dps accordingly so it is not getting higher, restore received accuracy and/or armor). Panther is another subject which was already discussed in other threads, so i won't derail any further.

What is the difference against tanks of 3PG +2PG with Shrecks and 2PG + 2PG with Shrecks ? They would be harder to kill, sure, but their damage wouldn't change versus armor.

you answered yourself.

i think PG performs fine combat and survive-ability wise. but they are just too damn expensive to keep around. i think reinforcement cost decrease alone is fine.

I get to use them with great effect, but it requires a bit of micro. Maybe a cost decrease for the unit would be great... 300 MP? Reinforce could be something like 35-37. That would help a lot.

Well something must be done ..its been nearly 6 months.How long can you play a faction with one infantry unit.And as for recieved accuracy..not only pz gren but several units got this atm.

Another method i can think of is relic give 2 versions of panzergrenadiers to wehrmacht..this will remove giving the AI version buffs affect AT blobbing.Like the tank busters and assault grenadiers of the panzer elite.If units are seperated i think balancing panzergrenadiers and making them viable agian would be much easier.
Maybe even move the stg 44 version to t3(just teching) for more teching viability and keep tank buster version t2.And then buff the AI unit seperately..that way it won't come too fast and can be balanced for its price and be useable.

Shocks (model) DPS at mid: 1.073
PG DPS at mid: 8.508
They are just close range combat units.

DPS lose: that´s the problem of upgrades vs default weapons. Same problem Penals suffer but even worse.
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@Aerohank: they had 0.75 rec acc and change it to 0.87
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Vet2 increase received accuracy (it was 40% extra armor). Someone knows the value right now?

Without changing the stats of the unit, you could spread the benefits of vet2 into vet1 giving it a bit of increase survivability.
So if for example it was -29% rec acc, it could be spread out 15-15 between both levels of veterancy.

Tweaking reinforcement/cost should also be an option.

Someone knows the value right now?

So if for example it was -29% rec acc

thats exactly what it is. so vet 2 pgrens have .6177 received accuracy.

They can be kept the same, just reduce the cost. They are 340 right now. When they were 360 they had armor. As they are now with no armor they should be much less than 20mp less. Something like 300 makes more sense to me.

They can be kept the same, just reduce the cost. They are 340 right now. When they were 360 they had armor. As they are now with no armor they should be much less than 20mp less. Something like 300 makes more sense to me.

And even at 300, i doubt anyone would invest 9popcap and 300 mp into an 'assault unit' which vanishes in about 3 seconds. If they are reworked, they should be desirable over standard grenadiers, and if the close range role is what is intended for them, they should be able to survive better. If they reach vet2, then they are good infantry units. But good luck keeping them alive until then =)

I would rather see them keeping the current price, and have a survivability boost (+ reduce reinforcement costs - time). The fifth man idea is somehow a good idea in the survivability department. But if it makes them too much to handle for tanks, as it as been pointed earlier, then maybe just armor and/or received accuracy modifier. This way they would have an elite infantry feeling attached to them, rather than being "assault grens".

I don't know if it has been discussed about, but having the shreck upgrade being 2x60 rather than a plain 120 for 2 would seem rather cool, so one can have 3+1PGs or 2+2PGs depending on the situation.

I know people are worried about the 5th man being apart of the squad right as it is built. So what about the fifth man coming from the Panzershreck upgrade? You get an extra guy for the squad with a shreck and an existing member gets a shrek and you still have 3 members with assault rifles.

Are they 9 pop? Coh2Stats shows 2 pop per man, which would be 8. I think 8 is a good value for them. 9 is a too much.

Do they have a received accuracy bonus now before vet2?

If they get a survive-ability bonus on an equivalent level of 1.5 armor, they should be priced at 360 once again.

Well i have tried using panzergrenadiers only to have them fail spectacularly most of the time.Their dmg output is very good but they never get to use it as models drop too fast.This is the main problem i'm seeing with pz grens,it loses one member before usually coming into optimal range(not charging just entering medium range) and that 25% of its DPS gone.Here is main difference with LMG squads where the lmg stays with the squad till the last model and can maintain a good DPS.

The only medium-close range squad still performing excellently are shocks at just 50 mp more - mainly because of armor,smoke but most of all because of 6 members.

I think panzergrenadiers be given 5 models instead of 4 to reduce the DPS drop off problem.Overall DPS should remain the same..but 1 model increased to circumvate this problem.To keep overall DPS same either it can be spread out between 5 members instead of 4,or one pistol armed guy can be added who basically does no dmg..but when one model is killed the remaining 4 get the stg 44s(meaning if pistol guy is killed no problem..but if stg guy is killed pistol guy picks up stg 44).
This would keep their dmg same but increase their much needed survivability and give wehrmacht another infantry unit to use as it currently has nothing save grenadiers.And revive this extinct unit.

5 Man would be too much, imagine Panzergrenadier blobs+Panzerschrecks, zomg.
Reduce it to 3 men-

Are they 9 pop? Coh2Stats shows 2 pop per man, which would be 8. I think 8 is a good value for them. 9 is a too much.

Do they have a received accuracy bonus now before vet2?

If they get a survive-ability bonus on an equivalent level of 1.5 armor, they should be priced at 360 once again.

Yes they are at 9 currently. I didn't make PG since a long time, but the ingame tooltip still lists them as 9, so i guess they are. From what woof said, they start at 0.87 received accuracy, then receive a further 29% (multiplicative -> *0.71) at vet2, which puts them at ~0.62.

I kinda agree with you there, give them decent survivability, and if need be, price them at 360, even more if they scale too well.

5 Man would be too much, imagine Panzergrenadier blobs+Panzerschrecks, zomg.
Reduce it to 3 men-

Nice troll, 10/10.

.87...it doesn't feel that way. Maybe I'm using them wrong. It feels like they are no better than cons really. Maybe it's just because most of my engagements have been vs shocks. If anything a little 5 or 10 percent penetration could be added to mp44 close range/mid range to help even out the shock/pg matchup some. Shocks should still win 1:1, but would not leave the battle ready for the next.