Are the OST Puma's different?
The Ost puma is the same except has better stun ability. The okw puma stuns the turret, the ost stuns the whole tank!
OKW Puma
21 Aug 2014, 16:02 PM
#61
Posts: 896
The Ost puma is the same except has better stun ability. The okw puma stuns the turret, the ost stuns the whole tank!
21 Aug 2014, 16:04 PM
#62
1 Posts: 247 | Subs: 2
Anyway, the other OKW strengths and weakness units are irrelevant in the context of this discussion, especially since we are discussing the puma. The puma is one of those units that can deal with anything with just some basic micro.
[...]
Disagree. OKW units in general have to be seen in the light of their whole faction design. Thats how Sturmpios make sense.
As pointed out by many before, the OKW massively lacks in AT power. Thats why you basically HAVE to make all your volks into panzerjäger. The Raketenwerfer is a clown gun. Jagdpanzer at 130 Fuel huge investment.
Puma is essential to survive. And I really can not understand how ppl can say Puma is a "no brainer" with "basic micro". It is probably the most micro intensive object on wheels in the game. Compared to the stuff it is fighting (medium tanks).
The lack of a proper at gun makes the overperformance of the Puma essential for OKW.
21 Aug 2014, 16:11 PM
#63
Posts: 110
As pointed out by many before, the OKW massively lacks in AT power.
Yeah the faction whose main infantry carries the most powerful portable anti tank weapon lacks in at firepower.
The one faction whose all non doctrinal tanks are dedicated anti tank tanks lack in anti tank firepower.
Thanks I needed a laugh.
21 Aug 2014, 16:15 PM
#64
Posts: 971
I personally would decrease acceleration and make smoke a vet ability.
Probably I would lower accuracy on the move too.
Instead of saying that Puma overperforms, I think that it has an extreme survivality being that fast and having stun and smoke.
They can easily counter any non-turreted tank, including M10, Isu-152, Su-85... also they are great against medium tanks, and if the things are going bad they can always throw smoke and have high chances to get away alive.
Probably I would lower accuracy on the move too.
Instead of saying that Puma overperforms, I think that it has an extreme survivality being that fast and having stun and smoke.
They can easily counter any non-turreted tank, including M10, Isu-152, Su-85... also they are great against medium tanks, and if the things are going bad they can always throw smoke and have high chances to get away alive.
21 Aug 2014, 16:15 PM
#65
Posts: 896
Yeah the faction whose main infantry carries the most powerful portable anti tank weapon lacks in at firepower.
The one faction whose all non doctrinal tanks are dedicated anti tank tanks lack in anti tank firepower.
Thanks I needed a laugh.
I would skip comments like that, it's just so far off it's not worth replying.
21 Aug 2014, 16:18 PM
#66
Posts: 449
Disagree. OKW units in general have to be seen in the light of their whole faction design. Thats how Sturmpios make sense.
It's not about disregarding the faction balance as a whole, it's about having a discussion on a single subject at a time (because humans are terrible at multitasking ideas).
Here, we discuss whether or not the puma overperforms, not how the faction balance will be affected by any nerf or what else needs to be buffed.
On topic, yes I think the puma overperforms. It's too good at too many things and not intuitive to counter as it performs more like a tank than a car.
I acknowledge that other stuff will need to be looked at should this unit be nerfed further.
21 Aug 2014, 16:45 PM
#67
1 Posts: 247 | Subs: 2
Yeah the faction whose main infantry carries the most powerful portable anti tank weapon lacks in at firepower.
The one faction whose all non doctrinal tanks are dedicated anti tank tanks lack in anti tank firepower.
Thanks I needed a laugh.
Glad to make you happy. And, yes, still, OKW lacks AT firepower because it has no viable AT gun. You are forced to upgrade your main line infantry into dedicated tank hunters. EVERY OKW player's first upgrade is shrek on volks because otherwise problems would be big. Its not a tech choice is a question of survival.
No viable AT gun --> all AT capabilities cost muni/fuel --> problem. Puma helps.
I would skip comments like that, it's just so far off it's not worth replying.
Smart way to stay in your castle.
It's not about disregarding the faction balance as a whole, it's about having a discussion on a single subject at a time (because humans are terrible at multitasking ideas).
Here, we discuss whether or not the puma overperforms, not how the faction balance will be affected by any nerf or what else needs to be buffed.
On topic, yes I think the puma overperforms. It's too good at too many things and not intuitive to counter as it performs more like a tank than a car.
I acknowledge that other stuff will need to be looked at should this unit be nerfed further.
Yes, I agree. But "overperforming" can also be a necessary feature of a certain unit to fill a role the faction otherwise cant. Thats what I think happens with the Puma. Its kind of a compensation unit for the lack of AT guns & medium tanks.
21 Aug 2014, 16:50 PM
#68
Posts: 665
Simple maths issue: you earn 66% of something, and the other player earns 100%, he earns 50% more than you. Therefore, OKW's Puma price is 105fu.
Except Puma is available after investing 40 fuel, that you start with by the way. Sherman needs at least 50 + 90. That's not going into the fuel needed to unlock a T-34 (at least 20 + 120) or a P4 (100 in tech + 30, assuming you don't build T1 or T2 which is lol).
People who bitch about OKW's reduced fuel always seem to forget their teching costs are the lowest in the game and they can access powerful units before any other faction. That's without mentioning fuel conversion too.
The Puma could use the smoke being a vet ability, and maybe a slight pen reduction. It seems to me it should be a flanking vehicle, yet with RNG it can take a T-34 or Sherman head on.
I mean, it's not like OKW lacks in anti tank firepower.
21 Aug 2014, 16:58 PM
#69
Posts: 612
And you seem to forget that it's in another building. Back teching because you need a jagdpanzer would result in a loss of you face a tank rush.
Lol "tank rush"
if you mean light vehicle rush then you'll have to deal with raketenwerfer and panzershrecks which is fine. Earliest tanks come out way later, plenty of time for a jagdP4. There is no tank rush that is unbearable unless you are missing your fuel as well all game
Plus no one told you to go for the mech truck first, Med truck is also a great choice
21 Aug 2014, 17:11 PM
#70
Posts: 170
May I ask why everyone feels the raketen is so useless? It's only disadvantage is the 10 range over other guns, otherwise it has comparable penetration and damage. It's reload is in between a pak and a zis, while its retreat and garrison give it some uniqueness. It's also cheaper than the other options by 70 MP and does not require teching. It has the same accuracy stats as other units (0.04 far, 0.06 near), though it's max range does overall me it less accurate at the same ranges. It feels like a unique AT gun that works.
I feel the puma is probably a little bit too good, it's mobility is certainly a bit too much. Maybe it's range could be toned down to 45?
For those talking about the cost, yes its cheaper to produce your first one, but every okw vehicle is a huge investment and must be high quality, especially since a second vehicle is very far away.
I feel the puma is probably a little bit too good, it's mobility is certainly a bit too much. Maybe it's range could be toned down to 45?
For those talking about the cost, yes its cheaper to produce your first one, but every okw vehicle is a huge investment and must be high quality, especially since a second vehicle is very far away.
21 Aug 2014, 18:01 PM
#71
Posts: 542
May I ask why everyone feels the raketen is so useless? It's only disadvantage is the 10 range over other guns, otherwise it has comparable penetration and damage. It's reload is in between a pak and a zis, while its retreat and garrison give it some uniqueness. It's also cheaper than the other options by 70 MP and does not require teching. It has the same accuracy stats as other units (0.04 far, 0.06 near), though it's max range does overall me it less accurate at the same ranges. It feels like a unique AT gun that works.
I feel the puma is probably a little bit too good, it's mobility is certainly a bit too much. Maybe it's range could be toned down to 45?
For those talking about the cost, yes its cheaper to produce your first one, but every okw vehicle is a huge investment and must be high quality, especially since a second vehicle is very far away.
The range disadvantage is huge in practice for an anti-tank gun, and it has a ridiculous targeting time before it shoots. I have often seen tanks drive into the firing range and out before a single shot was even fired. And it is also more fragile since it doesn't give cover to the crew.
21 Aug 2014, 18:27 PM
#72
Posts: 896
May I ask why everyone feels the raketen is so useless? It's only disadvantage is the 10 range over other guns, otherwise it has comparable penetration and damage. It's reload is in between a pak and a zis, while its retreat and garrison give it some uniqueness. It's also cheaper than the other options by 70 MP and does not require teching. It has the same accuracy stats as other units (0.04 far, 0.06 near), though it's max range does overall me it less accurate at the same ranges. It feels like a unique AT gun that works.
I feel the puma is probably a little bit too good, it's mobility is certainly a bit too much. Maybe it's range could be toned down to 45?
For those talking about the cost, yes its cheaper to produce your first one, but every okw vehicle is a huge investment and must be high quality, especially since a second vehicle is very far away.
Hardly and here is a reply where my opponent made 7 pumas! Yes you read it right seven plus a stuka and a panther! You can get vehicles as okw so easily.
Abdul
21 Aug 2014, 18:50 PM
#73
14 
Posts: 10665 | Subs: 9
Because Abdul has handled this stuff so positively e.g. by producing a vid to prove his point of view, I am not intervening.
@ UberHanz: please desist with the theory craft on Balance threads,unless and until you put up a replay to back up your assertions.
@ UberHanz: please desist with the theory craft on Balance threads,unless and until you put up a replay to back up your assertions.
21 Aug 2014, 19:29 PM
#74
Posts: 1701
*Puma kills infantry pretty well* ¿? Where? with the coaxial you mean?
Blaue Division - The best corp
BPX - Black Phoenix, Clan leader.
BPX - Black Phoenix, Clan leader.
21 Aug 2014, 19:31 PM
#75
Posts: 692
for a pure AT unit, yes, it's effective at chasing down infantry and snipers
I don't have a problem with its AI though. I don't have much of a problem at all really, but I do think it's slightly too effective against medium tanks
I don't have a problem with its AI though. I don't have much of a problem at all really, but I do think it's slightly too effective against medium tanks
21 Aug 2014, 19:44 PM
#76
Posts: 359
?? Either i don't understand what u mean, or something has been changed (and i don't know about it). Do you mean OKW has no fuel income reduction ?
I know I'm late to this party but let me quote where I explained this once before:
This is slightly pedantic but the 66% fuel income is slightly inaccurate for OKW.
All income from points is decreased by 66%. However all sides get a permanent +4 fuel at the start of the game which is not lowered for OKW.
Let's assume 1 fuel point, 5 strategic points. (~50% map control)
For normal player: 4 base + 15 strategic + 7 fuel = 26 fuel per minute.
For OKW player: 4 base + 10 strategic + 4.6 fuel = 18.6 fuel per minute.
18.6/26 = 71.7% fuel income of other sides with even map control.
OKW fuel income is a "moving target". In the first 10 seconds of the game they have 100% of the income of other sides. The percentage changes with every point captured but it is realistically closer to 70-72%.
... anyways! To get back on topic.
Puma does seem overpowered. Way too cost effective. Way too good at it's job. Maybe too good at other jobs like anti-infantry and scouting? It is uncharacteristically durable.
Why does it have 400 health when every light tank has 320? It has smoke without veterancy? It's an incredible package of abilities, vision, firepower and durability for cost.
21 Aug 2014, 19:54 PM
#77
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
*Puma kills infantry pretty well* ¿? Where? with the coaxial you mean?
Since you're clearly not aware of this-puma got 11-8.3 dps on coaxial. Its not huge, but its enough to quickly force off any non AT squad off the field given that it focuses entities, its pretty much slightly weaker LMG constantly unloading at you and that is nothing to ignore.
If you're that bad at using puma to not realize its powerful AT unit and decent enough AI one, then watch some streams of, well, anyone who ever uses puma early.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
21 Aug 2014, 19:59 PM
#78
Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3
Lol "tank rush"
if you mean light vehicle rush then you'll have to deal with raketenwerfer and panzershrecks which is fine. Earliest tanks come out way later, plenty of time for a jagdP4. There is no tank rush that is unbearable unless you are missing your fuel as well all game
Plus no one told you to go for the mech truck first, Med truck is also a great choice
Getting a t34 within 10 minutes is compeltely possible.
It's impossible to deploy the mechanized regiment, then battlegroup headquaters and then a jagdpanzer 4 within 10 minutes.
I'm usually against nerfing units of any faction, unless a stale meta is formed around it, like it was during the isu vs elefant times or during shocks vs flame.
By nerfing the puma you'd decrease the use of the mechanized regiment, since most people build to have reliable at in early to mid game. Stuka is usually produced when you encounter a blobber or somebody who entrenches with maxim spam.
I usually go for battlegroup headquaters, I just don't like that you want to take tactics and thereby versility away from the game.
I'd rather see a cost increase than a nerf, if it's inevitable.
This unit is designed to be a tank hunter, I have the feeling this people complain about a unit doing it's job. Likewise you could complain that a HMG supresses units and denies area.
If you need to know stats of certain unit: http://stat.coh2.hu
Which faction is OP and which is UP? Check it out here
Tips for beginners and wannabe pro's
Which faction is OP and which is UP? Check it out here
Tips for beginners and wannabe pro's
21 Aug 2014, 20:02 PM
#79
Posts: 896
*Puma kills infantry pretty well* ¿? Where? with the coaxial you mean?
Yes, plus the shells kill infantry occasionally. If you watch replays by good player (ex helpinghans) you will often find his puma getting 15-20 infantry kills before it goes down to a tank or something. If you like you can see it in the replay i attached.
21 Aug 2014, 20:03 PM
#80
Posts: 1130
How about puma overperforming for the cost relatively to other units and medium tanks coupled with super early arrival, which allows it to get vet before armor capable to fight it arrives?
Is that good enough reason?
Soviets also have M5 for clown car duties but that didn't stopped anyone from nerfing M3 multiple times.
For cost its fine. its a tank destroyer its their to destroy tanks. or do you want to nerf the wolferine as well then? same value and even more AT. and how the fudge do you even vet a puma from infantry kills? i have trouble vetting my luchs and a puma is 10 times more difficult to vet from infantry.
if the puma parks himself in front of a squad in the open it indeed has around the dps of 2 grens firing at a squad.
horrida flamma bella
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