OKW Puma

Yeah it does need to be addressed the puma. At the moment in 1v1 it is literally a no brainer AT unit choice for OKW, not to mention it has respectable AI capabilities as well.

"A no brainer AT unit choice"? Than how should we call the raketenwerfer? A idiot's AT choice? I mean, if OKW is punished by having the raketenwerfer instead of a reliable ground AT, it should be punished even more with the Puma nerfing?
All these calculation you people made here will not reflect in real life where a soviet player will storm with several T34s against your 1 - maybe 2 nerfed pumas.

Frankly, if we talk about nerfing OKW units, I can give you many examples of units that can be nerfed:

- sturmpios - to powerfull for a builder/combat unit
- obersoldaten - the most powerfull infantry in the game
- wurframen - oh, that was already nerfed.
- panzer II - to thick and not even AT infantry can fight against it successfuly
- panzerfusiliers - they get to many g43
- jagdtiger - it has the longest range and is the most powerfull AT vehicle in the game, while very thick

and so on.....

But changing all these (and/or Puma) what we will obtain? A faction that was designed on poverty because it has its elite units, will loose the word "elite", and it will have just units like the other armies, but with a resources handicap. Is that .... balance?!

I think it's fine except for it's pen. It has a very real chance of beating medium tanks 1v1 if it stays at range, which isn't hard.

I don't understand why a 50mm cannon has superior pen to the t34 / sherman (25% more, 120 pen vs 160)

First you speak of a scenario where it stays at range, then you take the penetration value from close range though. In long range it has a penetration value of 80 only, which is already lower than any other tank. In close range it will probably only fight if you a) outnumber the enemy or b) fight slow heavy tanks like ISU-152 and circle them.

If it is employed properly, why should it not be able to fight a medium tank? It is cheaper than one (of course not so much if you take into account OKW fuel handicap) and it has some strengths that keep the unit currently very powerful in the right hands (speed, range, smoke), but it also has several drawbacks in comparison to a medium tank (armor, health, poor accuracy and penetration on range, no anti-infantry capabilities, requires a lot more attention lacking elsewhere on battleground). I mean, the Puma is solely there to fight tanks and light vehicles, and for just light vehicles it would be too expensive (even though that is currently the only reasonable counter for American AA halftrack...), so it has to be able to fight medium tanks as well. And currently generalist medium tanks are able to beat more expensive dedicated anti-tank tanks like the Panther if flanked, so...



Anyway, nerfing the strengths of the units too much might turn the unit quickly pointless, because it wouldn't be able to perform well as a hit-and-run vehicle anymore. On the other hand it may be a bit too powerful for cost right now in capable hands (not so much in less capable ones...). Maybe a slight cost increase and a change to the veterancy ability could be reasonable, or a slight reducment in firing rate or even more reduced penetration so it takes longer to take down a medium tank unless you flank it. Or reduce the price significantly and make it only a counter to light vehicles unable to fight tanks on its own, but then OKW would have only very expensive anti-tank tanks left, which would cause other problems... especially since OKW doesn't even have a proper Anti-tank gun.

Get rid of the smoke or lower penetration.

All these calculation you people made here will not reflect in real life where a soviet player will storm with several T34s against your 1 - maybe 2 nerfed pumas.

Several T34s shouldn't be able to storm your Pumas, since your Pumas are way faster. Also, if the Soviet managed to get say 3 T34s, he wasted 300 fuel for the T34s + 120 for T3 and then some for T1 or T2. You should easily have a JagdPanzerIV and a Puma by that time, which will win that engagement every single time.

So what about spawning it with a 20 mm gun, so it is slightly more effective against infantry but sucks against all armor until you upgun it to its current (worse AI) state for XY munitions?
It would up the overall price of the unit for AT purposes and there'd likely be one less Panzerschreck squad (or less mines) around, too.

Am i the only one that sees this unit overperforming too much? not only it has longer firing range than other common units like T34 but also has insta smoke ability and this "jammed turret" vet 1 ability which is win button, also it has super reload time, had game where with one Puma I killed Shermans with E.Z.


Any opinions? and pls dont tell me it's balanced cuz it costs moar than ostheer Puma

Ostheer is not disadvantaged by fuel cost and thus their puma is cheaper. and 10 fuel is not much. depending on the situation both puma's vet abilities can be brutal. Your complaining that a dedicated tank destroyer is destroying tanks. Puma's are good no doubt about it but they exist because the okw doesnt have teller mines paks or a medium generalist tank. not to mention they cannot snare units without doctrinal units.

The puma is indeed the beating heart of the okw anti tank units but thats not a good reason to nerf it.

So what about spawning it with a 20 mm gun, so it is slightly more effective against infantry but sucks against all armor until you upgun it to its current (worse AI) state for XY munitions?
It would up the overall price of the unit for AT purposes and there'd likely be one less Panzerschreck squad (or less mines) around, too.

Such suggestions are quite useless. relic won't create a new unit model , yet alone all the skins that would need a change.

I like the idea but something like this will never happen. Okw is moreover not designed to have generalists units.

I don't understand why a 50mm cannon has superior pen to the t34 / sherman (25% more, 120 pen vs 160)

160 is actually 33% more than 120.

Speed and acceleration are high but keep in mind it has better road modifiers and worse offroad modifiers due to it being a wheeled vehicle (or at least I think so - stats gurus are welcome to correct me if I am wrong). I would not touch its speed or range, just its penetration and abilities.

Move smoke to vet1, reduce acceleration a bit if you must, or reduce mg damage slightly. But do not overnerf it. There is a reason for the Puma being so strong and for its tier/tech placement.

It seems quite a few of you are forgetting OKW has a better SU-85 that fills the dedicated AT role

The only problem I have is medium tanks missing shot after shot on the puma.

It seems quite a few of you are forgetting OKW has a better SU-85 that fills the dedicated AT role

Thats still not a reason to nerf the puma.

It seems quite a few of you are forgetting OKW has a better SU-85 that fills the dedicated AT role

And you seem to forget that it's in another building. Back teching because you need a jagdpanzer would result in a loss if you face a tank rush.

Not to mention the puma and jagd fill totally opposite AT roles.


If its true that the puma really is over performing, dont judge it vs a sherman, because it SHOULD counter tanks. Maybe tweak its anti inf power. But not too much.

Thats still not a reason to nerf the puma.

How about puma overperforming for the cost relatively to other units and medium tanks coupled with super early arrival, which allows it to get vet before armor capable to fight it arrives?

Is that good enough reason?

Soviets also have M5 for clown car duties but that didn't stopped anyone from nerfing M3 multiple times.

"A no brainer AT unit choice"? Than how should we call the raketenwerfer? A idiot's AT choice? I mean, if OKW is punished by having the raketenwerfer instead of a reliable ground AT, it should be punished even more with the Puma nerfing?
All these calculation you people made here will not reflect in real life where a soviet player will storm with several T34s against your 1 - maybe 2 nerfed pumas.

But changing all these (and/or Puma) what we will obtain? A faction that was designed on poverty because it has its elite units, will loose the word "elite", and it will have just units like the other armies, but with a resources handicap. Is that .... balance?!

Yes, it is a no brainer AT unit choice. If you have got the fuel to make a puma as OKW and your opponent has any form of vehicle on the field, then just make a puma. Even if he doesn't its still not a bad idea to get one out and vet it up early, especially since infantry can't really kill it anyway unless you make a serious error. A lot of the times you will find multiple pumas perform significantly better than the more fuel costly OKW armour. Not to mention the fact you will get them earlier.

I never said the rakentenwerfer was a poor unit either. It can easily deal with multiple armoured units with just with just shrecks support, especially on urban maps. However, if you can afford a puma it is always better since you get a range advantage and increase your armour kill potential.

Anyway, the other OKW strengths and weakness units are irrelevant in the context of this discussion, especially since we are discussing the puma. The puma is one of those units that can deal with anything with just some basic micro.

The puma has many strengths including:

• Range.
  
• Penetration.
  
• Speed.
  
• Accurate fire when moving.
  
• Vet1 = Instant win engagement.
  
• Reliable soft AI.
  

The few weaknesses it has (low armour, low health) are easily mitigated by its speedy forward or reverse action. Everything makes it pretty much a stand alone unit that all it requires in combined arms is a unit to scout for it so does not get in a unfavourable position.

It should be a counter to light vehicles and mobile artillery pieces, not tanks. I'd reduce its penetration and rate of fire, because holy shit why does it fire so fast?

An m10 stands almost no chance against it currently, which is just silly.

Are Shermans still able to damage the Puma with HE rounds? The Puma is maybe only slightly cheaper but the Sherman is much more effective at killing infantry. For the same price you can have a weapon that can kill the puma and kill infantry at a much better rate.

You also have access to a more reliable AT gun that will reliably penetrate the puma and a puma does only a little damage to an AT gun while a Sherman can wipe a raketenwerfer.

Are Shermans still able to damage the Puma with HE rounds? The Puma is maybe only slightly cheaper but the Sherman is much more effective at killing infantry. For the same price you can have a weapon that can kill the puma and kill infantry at a much better rate.

You also have access to a more reliable AT gun that will reliably penetrate the puma and a puma does only a little damage to an AT gun while a Sherman can wipe a raketenwerfer.

Sherman doesn't hit the field in 5 minute and doesn't counter panzers 1v1 while costing 20% less.

Yes I agree the puma over performs in its role, and here are few stats to remind everyone how good it is:

hitpoints 400
armor (f) 25
armor (b) 12.5
size 18 (same as scout car)
speed 7.2 (almost as fast as scout car)
pop 8
cost mp 320
cost fu 70

damage 120
penetration 160/120/80 (better than medium tanks at close/mid range)
range 50 (as good as panther)
reload 3.6-4.1sec


plus it has super fast acceleration and good accuracy while moving. And as others pointed out it kills infantry pretty well. This unit is on steroids.

Are the OST Puma's different?