JagdPanzer IV vs SU85

Or we could use our axis only friends terminology and replace 'fine' with 'underpowered' and 'fantastic' with 'op'.

SU-85 is no competition for JP4. JP got superior stats, optical stealth technology, much better scaling, MUCH better supportive AT that doesn't require specific tier to get and literally no teching cost if you open with med truck.

Had allies something of this caliber we'd be drown in tears within minutes of its release.

That being said, I don't believe either is OP or UP, JP4 is pretty amazing but SU-85 suffers from classic T4 problem-you get units that can be replaced with different units more effectively and earlier(or later if we want to use ISU instead of SU-85).

T4 overall doesn't perform well enough to appeal to anyone to get it.

JP4 has higher armor (irrelevant if they fire at each other, arguably the JP's armor advantage applies only to mediums and infantry at) while the St wins in rate of fire and mobility. Their penetration is nearly identical. The weakness of Soviet t4 is a different story, and so are their threats, but I wouldn't claim the JP4 has superior stats or abilities (focused sight vs camo is a different topic). Perhaps the SU could use an armor buff but this is thinness of allied armor in general.

So the allies have something with less armor (arguably irrelevant with their intended targets) but greater mobility and rate of fire. Yes,SU85 with more armor will drown us in axis tears.

JP4 has higher armor (irrelevant if they fire at each other, arguably the JP's armor advantage applies only to mediums and infantry at) while the St wins in rate of fire and mobility. Their penetration is nearly identical. The weakness of Soviet t4 is a different story, and so are their threats, but I wouldn't claim the JP4 has superior stats or abilities (focused sight vs camo is a different topic). Perhaps the SU could use an armor buff but this is thinness of allied armor in general.

So the allies have something with less armor (arguably irrelevant with their intended targets) but greater mobility and rate of fire. Yes,SU85 with more armor will drown us in axis tears.

I agree that su85 shouldn't get an armor buff. I think those types of tank destroyers are the ones that hit you form an ambush position and then back off. they are not meant to stay there and fight. Maybe a speed boost would be better?

JP4 has higher armor (irrelevant if they fire at each other, arguably the JP's armor advantage applies only to mediums and infantry at) while the St wins in rate of fire and mobility. Their penetration is nearly identical. The weakness of Soviet t4 is a different story, and so are their threats, but I wouldn't claim the JP4 has superior stats or abilities (focused sight vs camo is a different topic). Perhaps the SU could use an armor buff but this is thinness of allied armor in general.

So the allies have something with less armor (arguably irrelevant with their intended targets) but greater mobility and rate of fire. Yes,SU85 with more armor will drown us in axis tears.

At vet2 JP gets 10% more armor and extra 160hp, its ROF vet bonuses also are only 10% worse then SU-85 one and JP4 after vet1 will always have first shot advantage(not only talking 1v1, but attacking any armor).
I would also argue the mobility part of SU-85. Its not very mobile, it is compared to elephant, but not compared to JP4.

At vet2 JP gets 10% more armor and extra 160hp, its ROF vet bonuses also are only 10% worse then SU-85 one and JP4 after vet1 will always have first shot advantage(not only talking 1v1, but attacking any armor).
I would also argue the mobility part of SU-85. Its not very mobile, it is compared to elephant, but not compared to JP4.

Doesnt really matter. the su85 performs way better in the soviet army then the jp4 does in the okw. okw doesnt have access to the at nades or button up so supporting is much easier and a overall more effective combo then anything you can achieve with the jp4

Doesnt really matter. the su85 performs way better in the soviet army then the jp4 does in the okw. okw doesnt have access to the at nades or button up so supporting is much easier and a overall more effective combo then anything you can achieve with the jp4

Ummm, there are already posts in this thread stating its exactly the opposite with explanations.

And OKW does have access to AT nades and pfausts. Its in 2 most commonly picked doctrines. You also have cheap spammable mines to protect it just as well as soviets, you have 5 men squads with pshrecks that require no teching or side costs, same for puppchens.

JP4 have much better AT protection from infantry then SU-85.

"Doesnt really matter. the su85 performs way better in the soviet army then the jp4 does in the okw"

really? So, why nobody uses SU-85 than (or even T4), but we see many JgdPz4 in games??

And OKW does have access to AT nades and pfausts. Its in 2 most commonly picked doctrines.

whens the last time you tried to disable a tank with a panzerfusilier?

At vet2 JP gets 10% more armor and extra 160hp, its ROF vet bonuses also are only 10% worse then SU-85 one and JP4 after vet1 will always have first shot advantage(not only talking 1v1, but attacking any armor).
I would also argue the mobility part of SU-85. Its not very mobile, it is compared to elephant, but not compared to JP4.

its rate of fire bonuses are 15% higher, and that requires vet 4 from the jp4. even without vet, its already firing 15% faster.

the su85 does have slightly higher speed and acceleration. given that they have the same max speed bonus, it benefits the su85 more. it also gains 20% acceleration that the jp4 does not.

I was under the impression that SU-85 beats Jagdpanzer 1on1.
I wouldn't go JP seeing SU player went T4.

The few times I tried engaging a JP with an SU-85 in 1on1 I had to back off with the SU-85. Not sure if that was just bad luck but it seems like the JP wins that engagement.

Also, I don't really get why people are saying that JP isn't a good tank for OKW? It's one of my favorite units in OKW. I destroyed two T34-85s with one JP4, a schrek and some micro, and the same shit happens to me when I try to destroy the JP4 with T34-85s. Its frontal armor is so thick that you really need to flank the thing, which is very risky considering that OKW has such great infantry based AT support, and spammable mines.

Doesnt really matter. the su85 performs way better in the soviet army then the jp4 does in the okw. okw doesnt have access to the at nades or button up so supporting is much easier and a overall more effective combo then anything you can achieve with the jp4

I'd beg to differ. The JP4 perfoms better in the OKW army than the SU-85 does in the Soviet army.

There are a few things to take into consideration when it comes to the value of tank destroyers:
- The stats of the tank destroyers themselves
- Ability to snare enemy tanks for easy kills
- Vulnerability to enemy infantry based AT
- The armies ability to deal with enemy infantry, since the tank destroyer isn't going to help you with that.

Now stat-wise, the JP4 is superior. Their guns are close to the same, but the JP4 sports some very nice armor and a small target size. They lack self-spotting for far range but their nice veterancy bonuses make up for that.

Ability to snare goes to Soviets obviously, they have non doctrinal AT nades and have Button is some of their doctrines. OKW does have the ability to snare however. Just like the soviets, OKW has cheap mines for engine damage, and futhermore OKW has some doctrinal units with panzerfaust/AT-rifle nade. One of these units can spawn out of buildings for a quick surprise engine damage.

Vulnerability to infantry based AT is obviously in favor of the OKW. From the Soviet side there is only the AT gun that can damage the JP4, from the american side there is the AT-gun and bazookas, the latter being rather bad against the JP thanks to its thick front armor and the 'zookas low damage. Now the SU85 on the other hand is a lot more vulnerable to enemy AT guns and Panzerschreks. The SU-85s front armor is only 140, making it unable to bounce AT guns and the high-damage panzerschreks of the Germans.

And now the part where the JP4 completely outshines the SU85 in terms of better fitting into an army: dealing with enemy infantry. The OKW dominates infantry. Obersoldaten, vetted up JLI, panzerfussiliers, fallschrimjeager all decimate soviet infantry. On top of that you have have the cheap P2 Luchs or, if the enemy has many AT guns, the Stuka.
Now the Soviets, their only way to deal with OKW infantry is with armor. The only armor that can deal with OKW infantry is locked in another 120fuel tier. Going for shocks means no button, so that would mean the snare advantage of the SU85 is lost. The only other option is going for guards motor tactics, which will give you both guards and dual T34/85s. But those always come in pairs and are hard to get in a decent timeframe if you already invested into T4+SU85.

whens the last time you tried to disable a tank with a panzerfusilier?

Does that matter?
Jaigen believes its meaningful advantage.
Maybe he can't micro his tanks, who knows, anyway he felt like underlining this as an advantage, so I responded back that grass is not greener this time.

Does that matter?
Jaigen believes its meaningful advantage.
Maybe he can't micro his tanks, who knows, anyway he felt like underlining this as an advantage, so I responded back that grass is not greener this time.

the reason i ask is because the AT nades have been bugged for a while now. the ability goes on cooldown and takes your munitions and the squad never does the animation. not the best example of a way to protect your jp4

I don't think that's unique to panzerfusilier AT nades, Wooof. I've had them work when I used them, the next game had my riflemen bug out while trying to throw a grenade and just stand there mouth gaping with 1 crouched squad member.

But it's true the Pfusiliers AT nade is pretty sub-par. Still, I think OKW having a very tough and cheap Shreck platform makes up for their lack of snare. They still have decent mines too. Assymetric balance and all that jazz.

Bottom line is, OKW does not want for AT, that's for sure.

I don't think that's unique to panzerfusilier AT nades, Wooof. I've had them work when I used them, the next game had my riflemen bug out while trying to throw a grenade and just stand there mouth gaping with 1 crouched squad member.

no its not unique to fusiliers. ive had it fairly often with gren rifle nades as well (never with faust or con AT nades though).

Bottom line is, OKW does not want for AT, that's for sure.

i agree they have plenty of AT. snares are where they are lacking.

the reason i ask is because the AT nades have been bugged for a while now. the ability goes on cooldown and takes your munitions and the squad never does the animation. not the best example of a way to protect your jp4

Umm, sorry, but I don't consider bugs to be related to balance, because they are, you know, bugs.
Also, the bug goes for pretty much every nade in game.