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German T4

2 Aug 2014, 22:53 PM
#1
avatar of VindicareX
Patrion 14

Posts: 312

It's literally the worst thing in this game. I can't tell you how many games I've thrown, where I've had a massive lead, and throw all my resources into 3-4 panthers, only to have them lose me every game I play. The Panther for the Ostheer are just garbage: They are very expensive to tech to and build, mediocre anti tank damage, and some of the worst anti infantry damage around (even with the 60 muni MG upgrade). Their only redeeming quality is their larger armor and HP (which doesn't really matter since they can hardly take on medium tanks, let alone heavy tanks).

The counter to T34s (76 & 85) and Shermans should be the Panther! But no, The panther struggles heavily versus these units due to its lackluster damage and poor accuracy.
The Brummbar is more often than not worthless - misses way too much and leaves you generally very vulnerable to tanks (I get it's a niche unit, but it doesn't even fulfill its anti infantry role well).

I may as well just build a P4, which does very similar damage at more than half the cost. Now I see why people just go for tigers.


The Panther needs some buffs here.. either a significant reduction in cost or a damage buff.




The OKW Panther seems to do better. Probably because the OKW roster has better support units to cover the panthers weakness of crap damage.
2 Aug 2014, 22:53 PM
#2
avatar of VindicareX
Patrion 14

Posts: 312

Talking about 1v1, of course.
2 Aug 2014, 23:11 PM
#3
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

In 2v2 its just the same.
2 Aug 2014, 23:16 PM
#4
avatar of Ohme
Honorary Member Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 889 | Subs: 1

A significant reduction in cost would put it too close in price to the P4. I would prefer the main gun to fire more frequently, as it currently only supports "hit and run" style firing.
2 Aug 2014, 23:49 PM
#5
avatar of Khan

Posts: 578

Agreed, the unit is underperforming for its cost.
3 Aug 2014, 00:32 AM
#6
avatar of DarthBong420

Posts: 381

t4 germans is suicide no matter what mode you play. its only good for pwerfer. in 4v4 it can sort of work if you have enough fuel for t3 and t4, and only build pwerf and a brombar, only for trolling if you are winning. i only do this if i'm going the 2 luft docs. if you have a tiger doc you are only screwing yourself over by going t4.
3 Aug 2014, 00:35 AM
#7
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1701

So underperfoming.... useless T4. As I said in other posts, dont build T4 ever again. Never more.
3 Aug 2014, 02:19 AM
#8
avatar of ShadowTreasurer

Posts: 122

Even if Ostheer is designed to get a couple of T3 tanks first and not rush for T4, the tanks for T4 aren't a good late game addition. It's way better and cheaper (in mp and fuel) to just get several tigers after that.

The panther for OKW works because the teching is at a right price and you can take hits/deal dmg, and immediately retreat to a repair truck. Easy. Plus it has better AI and vet over time.
3 Aug 2014, 05:52 AM
#9
avatar of Lucas Troy

Posts: 508

Based on my observations of recent patches, Relic focuses on inter-faction balance and tends to somewhat neglect intra-faction balance, as they should. So they're concerned with making the match up between factions balanced, and don't care as much if SU-76, Ostruppen, OH T4 etc, are mostly unused.

It's a reasonable approach but IMO results in the game becoming more fair (which is good) but also more repetitive and thus less interesting. It also artificially ramps up the learning curve because players need to learn which units are randomly worthless.

Example: how is a new soviet player supposed to know that the SU-76 is worthless? It's impossible to learn this in game without getting stomped a bunch of times for building it, which is stupid. If they're gonna leave units that are so weak in the game, then they should some text in the description saying "the SU-76 sucks and you should only build it if you want the match to be harder." As of now I feel that certain aspects of intra-faction balance are so quirky that going online is pretty much required = not optimal game design.

edit:

I bring this up because I think OH T4 is basically fucked forever because it's so hard to buff it without making OH too strong.
3 Aug 2014, 06:10 AM
#10
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10665 | Subs: 9

In case you missed it in the last Relic cast, Ostheer T4 was stated to be currently under review. Hope that gives y'all some reassurance. :)

8 Aug 2014, 23:37 PM
#11
avatar of Warthrone

Posts: 205

Permanently Banned
It's literally the worst thing in this game. I can't tell you how many games I've thrown, where I've had a massive lead, and throw all my resources into 3-4 panthers, only to have them lose me every game I play. The Panther for the Ostheer are just garbage: They are very expensive to tech to and build, mediocre anti tank damage, and some of the worst anti infantry damage around (even with the 60 muni MG upgrade). Their only redeeming quality is their larger armor and HP (which doesn't really matter since they can hardly take on medium tanks, let alone heavy tanks).

The counter to T34s (76 & 85) and Shermans should be the Panther! But no, The panther struggles heavily versus these units due to its lackluster damage and poor accuracy.
The Brummbar is more often than not worthless - misses way too much and leaves you generally very vulnerable to tanks (I get it's a niche unit, but it doesn't even fulfill its anti infantry role well).

I may as well just build a P4, which does very similar damage at more than half the cost. Now I see why people just go for tigers.


The Panther needs some buffs here.. either a significant reduction in cost or a damage buff.




The OKW Panther seems to do better. Probably because the OKW roster has better support units to cover the panthers weakness of crap damage.


Agree Vindicare. Thanks for the post.
8 Aug 2014, 23:47 PM
#12
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

The Panther for the Ostheer are just garbage: They are very expensive to tech to and build, mediocre anti tank damage, and some of the worst anti infantry damage around (even with the 60 muni MG upgrade). Their only redeeming quality is their larger armor and HP (which doesn't really matter since they can hardly take on medium tanks, let alone heavy tanks).

The counter to T34s (76 & 85) and Shermans should be the Panther! But no, The panther struggles heavily versus these units due to its lackluster damage and poor accuracy.
Spot on. It doesn´t do its job. And to add insult to injury you get that pile of shit for 170 fuel. Or was it 175 fuel? After seeing the Panther fail this miserably at fighting units it was supposed to hard counter, I didn´t even bother getting T4 any longer for the last weeks. Thus I forgot the exact fuel price.
9 Aug 2014, 00:45 AM
#13
avatar of steel

Posts: 1963 | Subs: 1

In case you missed it in the last Relic cast, Ostheer T4 was stated to be currently under review. Hope that gives y'all some reassurance. :)

Let's have a feast to celebrate.
9 Aug 2014, 00:50 AM
#14
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384

I don't have that many issues with OSt t4 in terms of performance, but economically it is a tough sell.
9 Aug 2014, 01:01 AM
#15
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

Even if T4 cost zero, stug spam to tigers is just too nice.
9 Aug 2014, 03:09 AM
#16
avatar of Warthrone

Posts: 205

Permanently Banned
Even if T4 cost zero, stug spam to tigers is just too nice.


Well thats obvious considered the overpriced and UP nature of the panther and Brum
9 Aug 2014, 05:11 AM
#17
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

It really needs love. Putting Panther to the OKW one's standards would be a start, perhaps with more accuracy on the move (it's supposed to be a tank hunter, isn't it?).

Brumbar is always going to be a niche unit. Maybe increase AoE or accuracy so that it reliably hurts infantry, but I don't want it becoming a squadwipe machine either.

Panzerwerfer could use a cost reduction, since it ate the nerf along with the Katyusha for some reason.

Reducing the building's cost along with the above could be a start. Then again, the Tiger is so easy to use and still better economically that it would probably still overshadow T3. I don't think the problem will be solved until call-ins in general get a rework.

Also, completely agree with Lucas Troy, Relic has indeed favored balance between factions as opposed to balance within factions. It makes sense, but can make for a dull metagame and they should look at it.
9 Aug 2014, 09:54 AM
#18
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

Bumping for justice.

Cant watch the Relic cast atm.

Can someone paraphrase if Relic has made any statements at what specific kinds of solutions they are currently looking at for Ost T4?
9 Aug 2014, 09:59 AM
#19
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



Well thats obvious considered the overpriced and UP nature of the panther and Brum


You never really used brummbar, right? It squad wipes decently, can fight generalist stock tanks well and can effortlessly drive up and decrew AT guns.
9 Aug 2014, 10:20 AM
#20
avatar of Brichals

Posts: 85

I don't know Katitof. Brummbaer cant kill AT guns in less than about 7 shots in my recent observations. It was good once but I think it got nerfed. Lets be honest, none of us use it so we wouldn't know.

If for the same price they replaced Ostheer T4 with Stuka zu Fuss, OKW Sturmtiger and OKW Panther it still wouldn't be worth going T4 as Ostheer.
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