German T4

It's literally the worst thing in this game. I can't tell you how many games I've thrown, where I've had a massive lead, and throw all my resources into 3-4 panthers, only to have them lose me every game I play. The Panther for the Ostheer are just garbage: They are very expensive to tech to and build, mediocre anti tank damage, and some of the worst anti infantry damage around (even with the 60 muni MG upgrade). Their only redeeming quality is their larger armor and HP (which doesn't really matter since they can hardly take on medium tanks, let alone heavy tanks).

The counter to T34s (76 & 85) and Shermans should be the Panther! But no, The panther struggles heavily versus these units due to its lackluster damage and poor accuracy.
The Brummbar is more often than not worthless - misses way too much and leaves you generally very vulnerable to tanks (I get it's a niche unit, but it doesn't even fulfill its anti infantry role well).

I may as well just build a P4, which does very similar damage at more than half the cost. Now I see why people just go for tigers.


The Panther needs some buffs here.. either a significant reduction in cost or a damage buff.




The OKW Panther seems to do better. Probably because the OKW roster has better support units to cover the panthers weakness of crap damage.

Talking about 1v1, of course.

In 2v2 its just the same.

A significant reduction in cost would put it too close in price to the P4. I would prefer the main gun to fire more frequently, as it currently only supports "hit and run" style firing.

Agreed, the unit is underperforming for its cost.

t4 germans is suicide no matter what mode you play. its only good for pwerfer. in 4v4 it can sort of work if you have enough fuel for t3 and t4, and only build pwerf and a brombar, only for trolling if you are winning. i only do this if i'm going the 2 luft docs. if you have a tiger doc you are only screwing yourself over by going t4.

So underperfoming.... useless T4. As I said in other posts, dont build T4 ever again. Never more.

Even if Ostheer is designed to get a couple of T3 tanks first and not rush for T4, the tanks for T4 aren't a good late game addition. It's way better and cheaper (in mp and fuel) to just get several tigers after that.

The panther for OKW works because the teching is at a right price and you can take hits/deal dmg, and immediately retreat to a repair truck. Easy. Plus it has better AI and vet over time.

Based on my observations of recent patches, Relic focuses on inter-faction balance and tends to somewhat neglect intra-faction balance, as they should. So they're concerned with making the match up between factions balanced, and don't care as much if SU-76, Ostruppen, OH T4 etc, are mostly unused.

It's a reasonable approach but IMO results in the game becoming more fair (which is good) but also more repetitive and thus less interesting. It also artificially ramps up the learning curve because players need to learn which units are randomly worthless.

Example: how is a new soviet player supposed to know that the SU-76 is worthless? It's impossible to learn this in game without getting stomped a bunch of times for building it, which is stupid. If they're gonna leave units that are so weak in the game, then they should some text in the description saying "the SU-76 sucks and you should only build it if you want the match to be harder." As of now I feel that certain aspects of intra-faction balance are so quirky that going online is pretty much required = not optimal game design.

edit:

I bring this up because I think OH T4 is basically fucked forever because it's so hard to buff it without making OH too strong.

In case you missed it in the last Relic cast, Ostheer T4 was stated to be currently under review. Hope that gives y'all some reassurance.

It's literally the worst thing in this game. I can't tell you how many games I've thrown, where I've had a massive lead, and throw all my resources into 3-4 panthers, only to have them lose me every game I play. The Panther for the Ostheer are just garbage: They are very expensive to tech to and build, mediocre anti tank damage, and some of the worst anti infantry damage around (even with the 60 muni MG upgrade). Their only redeeming quality is their larger armor and HP (which doesn't really matter since they can hardly take on medium tanks, let alone heavy tanks).

The counter to T34s (76 & 85) and Shermans should be the Panther! But no, The panther struggles heavily versus these units due to its lackluster damage and poor accuracy.
The Brummbar is more often than not worthless - misses way too much and leaves you generally very vulnerable to tanks (I get it's a niche unit, but it doesn't even fulfill its anti infantry role well).

I may as well just build a P4, which does very similar damage at more than half the cost. Now I see why people just go for tigers.


The Panther needs some buffs here.. either a significant reduction in cost or a damage buff.




The OKW Panther seems to do better. Probably because the OKW roster has better support units to cover the panthers weakness of crap damage.

Agree Vindicare. Thanks for the post.

The Panther for the Ostheer are just garbage: They are very expensive to tech to and build, mediocre anti tank damage, and some of the worst anti infantry damage around (even with the 60 muni MG upgrade). Their only redeeming quality is their larger armor and HP (which doesn't really matter since they can hardly take on medium tanks, let alone heavy tanks).

The counter to T34s (76 & 85) and Shermans should be the Panther! But no, The panther struggles heavily versus these units due to its lackluster damage and poor accuracy.

Spot on. It doesn´t do its job. And to add insult to injury you get that pile of shit for 170 fuel. Or was it 175 fuel? After seeing the Panther fail this miserably at fighting units it was supposed to hard counter, I didn´t even bother getting T4 any longer for the last weeks. Thus I forgot the exact fuel price.

In case you missed it in the last Relic cast, Ostheer T4 was stated to be currently under review. Hope that gives y'all some reassurance.

Let's have a feast to celebrate.

I don't have that many issues with OSt t4 in terms of performance, but economically it is a tough sell.

Even if T4 cost zero, stug spam to tigers is just too nice.

Even if T4 cost zero, stug spam to tigers is just too nice.

Well thats obvious considered the overpriced and UP nature of the panther and Brum

It really needs love. Putting Panther to the OKW one's standards would be a start, perhaps with more accuracy on the move (it's supposed to be a tank hunter, isn't it?).

Brumbar is always going to be a niche unit. Maybe increase AoE or accuracy so that it reliably hurts infantry, but I don't want it becoming a squadwipe machine either.

Panzerwerfer could use a cost reduction, since it ate the nerf along with the Katyusha for some reason.

Reducing the building's cost along with the above could be a start. Then again, the Tiger is so easy to use and still better economically that it would probably still overshadow T3. I don't think the problem will be solved until call-ins in general get a rework.

Also, completely agree with Lucas Troy, Relic has indeed favored balance between factions as opposed to balance within factions. It makes sense, but can make for a dull metagame and they should look at it.

Bumping for justice.

Cant watch the Relic cast atm.

Can someone paraphrase if Relic has made any statements at what specific kinds of solutions they are currently looking at for Ost T4?

Well thats obvious considered the overpriced and UP nature of the panther and Brum

You never really used brummbar, right? It squad wipes decently, can fight generalist stock tanks well and can effortlessly drive up and decrew AT guns.

I don't know Katitof. Brummbaer cant kill AT guns in less than about 7 shots in my recent observations. It was good once but I think it got nerfed. Lets be honest, none of us use it so we wouldn't know.

If for the same price they replaced Ostheer T4 with Stuka zu Fuss, OKW Sturmtiger and OKW Panther it still wouldn't be worth going T4 as Ostheer.