German T4

Making unfounded assumptions benefits the discussion in no way whatsoever. Brummbar does everything somewhat well, but not well enough to make up for the cost and tech... especially since the StuG E does all it can do for less than half the price not even including teching and building cost, while also having something like a third of the reload time.

agreed.

I think the primary problem with Ost T4, is the timing and costs of getting there.
The costs and relative efficiency of the units actually from T4, are secondary to that.

The tier structure, costs and timings are the primary hurdle. Its making it so that "tier-skip" meta builds are not viable for Ost.

To demonstrate this by means of comparison, consider the following (admittedly improbable) "what if" alternatives:
-What if Ost T3/T4 was changed to a Sov T3/T4 style split. So that after BP1, you could go straight to BP3. Suddenly a new meta is opened, and the cost and stat requirements of T4 units can be "less", but still reasonable to the tier costs.
-Or, removing the T4 building altogether, and making BP3 an upgrade to the T3 building, so you build T4 units feom the T3 building instead.

The problem, is that with the linear Ost tier structure, T4 units are sort of doomed to be caught in a very difficult paradox of having to be very good at what they do AND and also quite expensive. Especially when compared to Callins, which especially for Ost, are extremely cost and stat efficient, when compared to T4.

Because of the forced linear tier costs and timings, ideally Ost T4 units should be BETTER than the callins!
Do you guys see what I mean? Unfortunately, this was not the design line Relic took.

Instead there is an impossible case of how to make T4 competetive with callins, without making them prohibitively expensive, or efficient performers at their job.

Callins completely outclass T4, in cost, timings, and performance, leaving Ost T4 a lame duck that you cant improve without making the t4 units either ridiculously cheap, or ridiculously powerful.

I think the primary problem with Ost T4, is the timing and costs of getting there.
The costs and relative efficiency of the units actually from T4, are secondary to that.

The tier structure, costs and timings are the primary hurdle. Its making it so that "tier-skip" meta builds are not viable for Ost.

To demonstrate this by means of comparison, consider the following (admittedly improbable) "what if" alternatives:
-What if Ost T3/T4 was changed to a Sov T3/T4 style split. So that after BP1, you could go straight to BP3. Suddenly a new meta is opened, and the cost and stat requirements of T4 units can be "less", but still reasonable to the tier costs.
-Or, removing the T4 building altogether, and making BP3 an upgrade to the T3 building, so you build T4 units feom the T3 building instead.

The problem, is that with the linear Ost tier structure, T4 units are sort of doomed to be caught in a very difficult paradox of having to be very good at what they do AND and also quite expensive. Especially when compared to Callins, which especially for Ost, are extremely cost and stat efficient, when compared to T4.

Because of the forced linear tier costs and timings, ideally Ost T4 units should be BETTER than the callins!
Do you guys see what I mean? Unfortunately, this was not the design line Relic took.

Instead there is an impossible case of how to make T4 competetive with callins, without making them prohibitively expensive, or efficient performers at their job.

Callins completely outclass T4, in cost, timings, and performance, leaving Ost T4 a lame duck that you cant improve without making the t4 units either ridiculously cheap, or ridiculously powerful.

While pio spam used to had some uses, skipping tiers was a possibility prior to the teching timing changes.

As i´ve already suggested before, why is there not a swapping on the prices of BP and Tiers. You are actually paying the same but it allows you to skips tiers, such as going for a bit more affordable T4 or rushing T3 skipping T2.

While pio spam used to had some uses, skipping tiers was a possibility prior to the teching timing changes.

Yeah, man. Pio spam used to be awesome, right? Right?
And skipping to T4 was equally shortlived, for about a month after release, and roughly 50 patches ago, when Panther still had teeth and 3/4 of DLC Commanders didnt exist, let alone 2 new factions.

As i´ve already suggested before, why is there not a swapping on the prices of BP and Tiers. You are actually paying the same but it allows you to skips tiers, such as going for a bit more affordable T4 or rushing T3 skipping T2.

As you said, it would not make much of a difference. The BP and Building costs are not far apart.
So wouldnt "allow you to skip tiers" really any more than now. So you sort of defeated your own suggestion.

Its a start, but the small differences in cost from the swap are so small as to be practically unusable.

The tier structure is linear, and more or less an even split between BP and Building in terms of cost.

The result of which, as I expressed at some great length, results in callins outclassing T4, and the difficult paradox that for cost and timings, T4nunits reallynshould acrually be better than callins, but which for obvious reasons, is impossible, because they would either be so cheap, or so poweerful at their specialty, or both, to compete with callins, that its simply not possible todo.

Im not sure you really yet understand what I mean by that.
Perhaps I am explaining it poorly, though I tried, at length.

Yeah, man. Pio spam used to be awesome, right? Right?
And skipping to T4 was equally shortlived, for about a month after release, and roughly 50 patches ago, when Panther still had teeth and 3/4 of DLC Commanders didnt exist, let alone 2 new factions.



As you said, it would not make much of a difference. The BP and Building costs are not far apart.
So wouldnt "allow you to skip tiers" really any more than now. So you sort of defeated your own suggestion.

Its a start, but the small differences in cost from the swap are so small as to be practically unusable.

The tier structure is linear, and more or less an even split between BP and Building in terms of cost.

The result of which, as I expressed at some great length, results in callins outclassing T4, and the difficult paradox that for cost and timings, T4nunits reallynshould acrually be better than callins, but which for obvious reasons, is impossible, because they would either be so cheap, or so poweerful at their specialty, or both, to compete with callins, that its simply not possible todo.

Im not sure you really yet understand what I mean by that.
Perhaps I am explaining it poorly, though I tried, at length.

I guess you don´t have memory? I think i forgot to write something since my line of thought was trying to give an example of skipping each tier and how validly was skipping tiers.

-Pio spam into 222 appear and dissapear as quickly as it show up.
-Eventhough Assgren into 222 live for some months
-Same when Osstruppen was released.
-Skipping T2 into quick T3 was common (later backtech to T2)
-Skipping T3 was pretty common in 2v2+. T3 + Tigers in combination with Panzerwerfer + Panther. During the whole life of the game.
-Skipping T3 was also a VALID option on 1v1 on certain maps n scenarios.

AGAIN, swapping prices is just a quick "fix" till they decide to test other more gamechanging values. While 40mp and 30fuel isn´t a lot, it would HELP fielding the first T4 vehicle.

I might add that just a cost decrease of Ostheer T4 won´t make it any more attractive over no tech + Tiger. As long as you have the ability to get an omni-purpose tank performing way better than Panthers versus infantry and about the same in anti tank abilities, won´t make you build a Panther. If I go Panthers and sacrifice anti infantry power, I should get something performing better versus tanks.

I might add that just a cost decrease of Ostheer T4 won´t make it any more attractive over no tech + Tiger. As long as you have the ability to get an omni-purpose tank performing way better than Panthers versus infantry and about the same in anti tank abilities, won´t make you build a Panther. If I go Panthers and sacrifice anti infantry power, I should get something performing better versus tanks.

Its never going to be worth it when it has less DPS than a panzer 4.And worse accuracy.Unbeleivable they expect us to use such a tank for the price.Armor can't kill anything..glorified meatshield with a dud gun and drunk gunner=panther.

I guess you don´t have memory? I think i forgot to write something since my line of thought was trying to give an example of skipping each tier and how validly was skipping tiers.

You miss the key point of my post entirely, for the second time around, even though twice I have explained it at great length.

What you suggest is not even a bandaid, and doesn't actually address the core issue.

You miss the key point of my post entirely, for the second time around, even though twice I have explained it at great length.

What you suggest is not even a bandaid, and doesn't actually address the core issue.

"Yeah, man. Pio spam used to be awesome, right? Right?
And skipping to T4 was equally shortlived, for about a month after release, and roughly 50 patches ago, when Panther still had teeth and 3/4 of DLC Commanders didnt exist, let alone 2 new factions."

I answered this with examples.
Saying that T4 only lived for 1 month after released or 50 patches ago is a fallacy. The changes to teching times killed it with the increase fuel cost/stat nerf.

I´ve already said that the core issue is not fixed, but i don´t see a gamechanging problem for the change i propose since overall teching cost remains the same.

Which is why it makes no significant beneficial difference to the problem, as you clearly state.

And still, its missing the point of callins outperforming, at cost and in stats, T4 units.
Which is the crux of the central problem, especiqlly for Ost, with its linear structure.

Your suggestion fixes nothing. Just makes tier play even harder.
I dont see the point at all.

Just swapping an apple for an orange, at the same essential net result of zero.

Simply no reason to go german t4. Even the OKW panther is terrible

Simply no reason to go german t4. Even the OKW panther is terrible

You sir are on hard drugs here.
It arrives much faster then Ost one and got better stats.

The only logical reason why it sucks for you is because you suck with using it.

Simply no reason to go german t4. Even the OKW panther is terrible

Sry mate, but I'm gonna have to agree with Kat with this. The OKW panther is better in that it arrives faster and has better stats than its ost counterpart which is a tryhard tank hunter.

If we compare the german t4 to the soviet t4 we have one big problem, you need to tec again for the german t4, which is useless if you were not fast enough with tecing because at this point isu and is2 will arrive soon. The tanks in t4 are not only expencive but highly specialiced tanks, sure it's the same with the su-85, but it's much cheaper. And the panther and brummbear have some problems with accuracy which is another point not to go for those two. Haven't tested the panzerwerfer out, so i can't say anything about it.
There are a few possible options:

1. Give the panther some anti infantry capabilitys, like they did with the tiger.

2. Make it possible to go directly for t4 and skip the t3 (cost adjustments may be necessary)

3. Buff the t4 so they are able to stand up versus heavy tanks and others
(Accuracy of both need to be buffed anyway)

just had a 4v4 game where a bunch of t34/76, three to be precise (which had been already dominating not to say raping my grens and my pak in the minutes i was stupidly going for t4) facing my desperately waited for panther from the front, rushing in, penetrating every round before they even got close and before the panther hardly could fire its second shot destroy it.

Its a fucking joke ...

So you just rushed your single unsupported panther at 3 probably vetted tanks and believe its a balance issue?

Sry mate, but I'm gonna have to agree with Kat with this. The OKW panther is better in that it arrives faster and has better stats than its ost counterpart which is a tryhard tank hunter.

Its more accurate no doubt about it. but it doesn't change the fact that this unit is severely overpriced for what it is doing and needs a fuel reduction back to 135 fuel. currently its a only suited as a supbar meat shield but i rather use the sturmtiger for that.

Ostheer panthers are just plain inaccurate. I get it that moving tanks have less accuracy, but the panther should be the least impacted by this. The tank's inability to hit even stationary targets it amazing. When so much of combat is decided by who gets off the first shot, accuracy and range reign.

But the panther's minor range advantage generally just means the panther is the first tank to miss. The spotting scope upgrade is the only thing that really takes advantage of the panther's range, but it has to be stationary to work, relegating it to a more defensive role.

Additionally, the panther's speed is not so great that it can circle strafe anything with a turret without its vet 1 ability. Even SU85s and ISU 152s are able to rotate fast enough to hit panthers until at very close ranges. (And if there's room for reversing, blitzkreig is required.) This is also assuming you're playing a map that actually has to room to drive a tank in a circle in the first place.

Thus, you have an inaccurate tank that has a hard time getting into a flanking position on even unturreted weapons. This means that you have to either go for t3 tanks, field more panthers, or get Tigers to make an offensive against allied armor.

The thing is, a solo panther performs woefully. (Much like a solo axis mortar, or a solo anything v anything.) Too expensive to be cannon fodder, and far too inaccurate and outclassed by heavier call-ins, they really aren't worth the investment. Even a group of panthers can't get enough hits to land to give them any sort of offensive shock value. When rear armor hits come in short, opportune windows, accuracy is everything.

Damage over time doesn't mean anything when the timing is wrong. Timing and position is everything, and panthers can't take advantage of either in their current state.

I actually managed to abuse the Panther's (Ostheer) turret rotation speed to solo one with a lone T-34. The opponent wasn't very good, but still. It needs some teeth.

I think this primarily comes from making it a true tank hunter; Panther, at its cost, should strike fear in anything 1v1 save IS-2s. Make it very accurate, with a fast turret rotation, up its speed a bit, and maybe a lesser accuracy penalty on the move. For the cost you're paying, and with its lack of AI power, the Panther should be a terror almost equal to a call-in heavy, capable of hunting down and destroying enemy armor.

I actually managed to abuse the Panther's (Ostheer) turret rotation speed to solo one with a lone T-34. The opponent wasn't very good, but still. It needs some teeth.

I think this primarily comes from making it a true tank hunter; Panther, at its cost, should strike fear in anything 1v1 save IS-2s. Make it very accurate, with a fast turret rotation, up its speed a bit, and maybe a lesser accuracy penalty on the move. For the cost you're paying, and with its lack of AI power, the Panther should be a terror almost equal to a call-in heavy, capable of hunting down and destroying enemy armor.

Definitely don't up the speed but fix the path finding so it doesn't have to go around a log that even a panzer 2 can go through. I approve of giving it more accuracy. But the damage is the issue. A panzer iv has better dps than a panther. Maybe up the damage a bit?