Diversifing the DPS roles of Penals and Cons

guards get 2 dp lmgs, so they are even better

2*6.42 + 2*1.24 = 15.3 dps

im not even going to count the ptrs because the chances of a hit are so slim.

HERP DERP I am an intelligent person! Thanks for educating me. I'll begin using Guards properly now.

This comes up once in a while by those that are not sympathetic (some of the mods and community personalites, even). I've noticed that most of the 'top players' care about gaming/winning only and have no interest or understanding in the history. Different courses.

For me, history comes with good gaming and trade offs are made. I see it as a balancing act with good gaming coming first. The history can then slide its way through into the path that is made.

Why the people here insists still in talking about historical accuracy??

You don't understand what we want. We don't want Yuri the conscript who has no weapons and teleported from 41 to 44 and cant hit anything.
We don't want Ivan the penal troop who got there who knows how.

What the fuck are you talking about.
Who the fuck is "we".
How the fuck is Yuri the Penal trooper, different from the Yuri the Conscript he originally was , in any meaningulf sense.
Ill tell you how. Yuri used to be a conscript, until some NKVD asshole labelled him a criminal because of somwthing he said against the party, when he was drunk. Now Yuri is a Penal, and still fighting the fight, but with even shittier stuff to deal with.

Thatnis who Yuri is. A citizen, foreced into a Penal unit, and still fighting for his life, for his comrades, his loved ones and for his state.

Why are you trying to shit on the accomplishments and sacrifice of Penal troop for their comrades, loved ones and state?

Penal troops fought and died, like everyone else in the Great Patriotic War/WWII.

I have no idea what the fuck you are on about.

Stop trying to portray their accomplishments and sacrifice as "less " than anyone elses who risked or gave their life.
Makes no goddam sense.

Even as an officer in the opposing army (Finland) I appreciate Penals for what they achieved and risked.
What is your excuse and explanation for trying to piss on their efforts and losses?

If you had actually served in the military in defence of your country, you would understand that your angle, historically and morally, is wrong.

So much for that argument then, because not only do Penals have good dmg from SVT, byt they also cost more.
Thats why this thread, and my earlier proposal for a wide upgrade variety.

Its not an "elite" unit, its a "rare" unit that, if the changes I propose are implemented, can have great variety to fill the Commander gaps on a baseline tech system.

Penals are NOT trash. Historically, they are a "shock" unit to be delpoyed, with the weapons and support they need, in missions so dangerous that nobody else will volunteer for them.

I dont understand, at all, why you try to piss on the accomplishments and sacrifice of Penal men.
They fought, and died, just as hard, if not harder in many cases, as everyone elsw.

Stop trying to piss on them, as if they where trash. They wherent.
Inatead, focus on the point of the thread, which is bringing Penals to where they need to be in tech and meta structure.

@Cannonada

Calm down mate, i have no idea what you are trying to do here, but i suggest you stop. Seriously, it looks like you are trying to start a war with everyone here by antagonising everyone as unrespectfull basterds.

He stated that the depiction of the soviet army was wrong and in no way respect all of those who fought, as if the red army was only made of conscripts and penal troops. They had regulars too you know.

And from all the stuff i could read, penals were used to do missions such as "recon in force" if you are familiar with the term, that's more than just an impossible mission. That's how the higher ups whanted to use them even tough they could be soldiers just like anyone else.

What the fuck are you talking about.
Who the fuck is "we".
How the fuck is Yuri the Penal trooper, different from the Yuri the Conscript he originally was , in any meaningulf sense.
Ill tell you how. Yuri used to be a conscript, until some NKVD asshole labelled him a criminal because of somwthing he said against the party, when he was drunk. Now Yuri is a Penal, and still fighting the fight, but with even shittier stuff to deal with.

Thatnis who Yuri is. A citizen, foreced into a Penal unit, and still fighting for his life, for his comrades, his loved ones and for his state.

Why are you trying to shit on the accomplishments and sacrifice of Penal troop for their comrades, loved ones and state?

Penal troops fought and died, like everyone else in the Great Patriotic War/WWII.

I have no idea what the fuck you are on about.

Stop trying to portray their accomplishments and sacrifice as "less " than anyone elses who risked or gave their life.
Makes no goddam sense.

Even as an officer in the opposing army (Finland) I appreciate Penals for what they achieved and risked.
What is your excuse and explanation for trying to piss on their efforts and losses?

If you had actually served in the military in defence of your country, you would understand that your angle, historically and morally, is wrong.

So much for that argument then, because not only do Penals have good dmg from SVT, byt they also cost more.
Thats why this thread, and my earlier proposal for a wide upgrade variety.

Its not an "elite" unit, its a "rare" unit that, if the changes I propose are implemented, can have great variety to fill the Commander gaps on a baseline tech system.

Penals are NOT trash. Historically, they are a "shock" unit to be delpoyed, with the weapons and support they need, in missions so dangerous that nobody else will volunteer for them.

I dont understand, at all, why you try to piss on the accomplishments and sacrifice of Penal men.
They fought, and died, just as hard, if not harder in many cases, as everyone elsw.

Stop trying to piss on them, as if they where trash. They wherent.
Inatead, focus on the point of the thread, which is bringing Penals to where they need to be in tech and meta structure.

I guess the point he wants to make is, that sovjets should finally get some non doctrinal long range infantry!

What the fuck are you talking about.
Who the fuck is "we".
How the fuck is Yuri the Penal trooper, different from the Yuri the Conscript he originally was , in any meaningulf sense.
Ill tell you how. Yuri used to be a conscript, until some NKVD asshole labelled him a criminal because of somwthing he said against the party, when he was drunk. Now Yuri is a Penal, and still fighting the fight, but with even shittier stuff to deal with.

Thatnis who Yuri is. A citizen, foreced into a Penal unit, and still fighting for his life, for his comrades, his loved ones and for his state.

Why are you trying to shit on the accomplishments and sacrifice of Penal troop for their comrades, loved ones and state?

Penal troops fought and died, like everyone else in the Great Patriotic War/WWII.

I have no idea what the fuck you are on about.

Stop trying to portray their accomplishments and sacrifice as "less " than anyone elses who risked or gave their life.
Makes no goddam sense.

Even as an officer in the opposing army (Finland) I appreciate Penals for what they achieved and risked.
What is your excuse and explanation for trying to piss on their efforts and losses?

If you had actually served in the military in defence of your country, you would understand that your angle, historically and morally, is wrong.

So much for that argument then, because not only do Penals have good dmg from SVT, byt they also cost more.
Thats why this thread, and my earlier proposal for a wide upgrade variety.

Its not an "elite" unit, its a "rare" unit that, if the changes I propose are implemented, can have great variety to fill the Commander gaps on a baseline tech system.

Penals are NOT trash. Historically, they are a "shock" unit to be delpoyed, with the weapons and support they need, in missions so dangerous that nobody else will volunteer for them.

I dont understand, at all, why you try to piss on the accomplishments and sacrifice of Penal men.
They fought, and died, just as hard, if not harder in many cases, as everyone elsw.

Stop trying to piss on them, as if they where trash. They wherent.
Inatead, focus on the point of the thread, which is bringing Penals to where they need to be in tech and meta structure.

Dude, calm down, you completely misunderstood me. What i am not ok is how the red army is equipped in this game. Conscripts in this game only have rifles. However, in reality, a dp light machine gun and some ppsh was part of every soviet 12 man squad. Yet in this game, most factions get their light machine guns (bars, lmg grens,obersoldaten) while poor soviets don't even get submachine guns or light machine guns non doctrinally.

Regarding penals, you are right. They were just troops following orders, and unlike what most people think, they were usually well equipped and well lead.

What i meant by "Vassiliy the rifleman" was that soviets need some non doctrinal infantry that scale decently, even in the late game.

If relic is feeling particuraly generuos, give penals a 4x PTRS upgrade.
The most simple solution would just to give conscripts a 1x dp upgrade. Make that dp around 75% - 80% damage of a gaurd DP, they would still lose to lmg grens, but atleast they could fight them. That's all i want . Nothing more.

If relic is feeling particuraly generous, they could give penals 4x PTRS upgrade.

Why is it always with upgrades?

First of all, AT on Penals is bad, because that counters the counter to scoutcars. There shouldn't be a unit with AT in T1.

Second - Upgrades are really hard to balance. They increase the scaling and the cost-effectiveness of this unit and usually result in it being spammed. If you keep the unit in a normal position and just give it an upgrade, then that unit will be fielded all the time and upgraded, causing massive spam. If you make the unit slightly too bad without the upgrade, but better with it, then the upgrade becomes mandatory, fielding the unit otherwise is not encouraged. Look at how Grens are at the moment. Normal Grens without the LMG have problems facing Conscripts, but with an LMG easily own them. Keep in mind Grens are slightly more expensive upkeep-wise than Conscripts. This basically makes an upgrade on Grens mandatory.
Giving an upgrade to Conscripts is the exact opposite of what's intended. Instead of encouraging the use of combined arms, it would just result in people spamming Conscripts again. Take a look at PGrens vs LMG-Grens. PGrens itself are price-wise perfectly aligned (might even be a bit too good for cost right now), but they get totally eclipsed by the fact that LMG-Grens can almost do the same thing, but are cheaper and more versatile.

If you suggest such changes, please, gameplay over reality. In reality a lot of the squads were different, but giving a LMG to each and every faction is the worst way to go. It already adds a lot of problems with Ostheer LMG42 and I'd rather work with that upgrade being more of a sidegrade, than introducing mandatory upgrades for other factions as well. Inner-faction unit balance is just as important as intra-faction balance, sacrificing one for the other is not good.

Rename penals to strelky. Give them mosin nagants and 1 dp. Cost increase to 300. Also give them a grenade.


Holy shit, red army is no longer based on stereotypes and cliches.

Yup, do this please!

make the penals a commander ability as they were actually pretty rare. then you can make them as deadly as you like

Bump, since there is a discussion on the Conscript thread.
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While some people may think going the updgrade road is a problem, what about going this route (while adjusting mp cost if neccesary)


2B-Switch the SVT profile to make them more of a mid-long range squad (as before, like G43)

-Reduce to 3 SVT with increased performance and give 3 mosins (con level) while mantaining desire DPS

Here's an idea

Penals:
4 man squad...
Cost reduced to... idk something cheap 180-200?

Base movement speed increased by 15%
Starts with Urrah at vet 0.

Demo charge cost and cooldown reduced by half. (ummm some changes to damage might need to take place regarding OKW trucks)

Role is now:
A demolitions suicide squad
Requires good micro to handle.

Making penals a bit more versatile would help to add some additional gameplay options. They only would need the global at_nades. Just up their manpower's cost up 5%.

Thanks !

Here's an idea

Penals:
4 man squad...
Cost reduced to... idk something cheap 180-200?

Base movement speed increased by 15%
Starts with Urrah at vet 0.

Demo charge cost and cooldown reduced by half. (ummm some changes to damage might need to take place regarding OKW trucks)

Role is now:
A demolitions suicide squad
Requires good micro to handle.

In case you have not noticed with Osttruppen, partisans, irregulars, 45mm AT gun and to a lesser extend both variants of pathfinders and USF HMG-low cost/firepower/survivability squads do not work.

So why adding yet another worthless unit? Its not warcraft3 where you got goblins or SC2 where you got banelings that actually can be used as suicide units.

There is no such thing as suicide unit in coh franchise except Goliath.

I would make them 5 man squad.And then adjust accordingly with upgrades of DP or better SVT weapon profile.

My greatest concern in early game overbuffed penals roaming map in clown cars slaughtering everything.Lategame scalability should be main focus,earlygame they do fine.

Soviets need a unit that can properly fight in cover at mid-long range. Not another cheap suicide short-range unit.

Conscripts are useful for that.

Mabye give them an LMG upgrade which requires t3 or 4? would be a cool inscentive to tech

With absolutely no AT power in Tier 1 or on the penals themselves I feel it justified for them to present a solid anti-infantry force.

Past mid game penals face a variety of long range anti-infantry forces such as Obers, Fusils, Falls, Jaegers, LMG Grens, and even PG's who project well throughout carbine ranges. All of those squads are deadly at SVT ranges, and most have receive accuracy to boot. I don't expect them to trade blows with Obers, but Penals were designed to move into mid range on Grenadiers and come out slightly ahead. Against these new kids on the block it is a massacre.

The plethora of long range anti-infantry killing power added by WFA is what is encouraging blobbing. Squads aren't just pushed off anymore, they're flat out wiped without an ideal retreat path.



That rambling out of the way. I think on the topic of weapon upgrades we need to consider the staying power of the squad in question.

One of the reasons weapon upgrades such as LMG grens overperform is that they retain their LMG until they're wiped out. As mentioned earlier, a full gren squad with LMG does 9.41 + 3*2.13 = 15.8 DPS. Since the LMG is passed around the squad only loses 2.13, or 7.5%, dps per causality. Eventually the one man Gren squad is still doing 60% dps of a full squad.

In comparison, a standard six man squad like penals lose a sixth, 16.7%, of their dps with each entity killed. Come mid battle when half of both forces having injured squads those with the weapon upgrades still retain much more dps. To be fair, other elite infantry on both sides such as Falls and PG's have similar DPS loss per model.

My meandering point is that weapon upgrades can be balanced, or unbalanced, based also upon their ability to provide long range staying power in the field that is resistant to DPS bleed - and I find this to be what soviets are lacking.

So why not, give everything a DP.

Personally, I think the Penal is in an extremely awkward position as far as teching goes: The squad aims to be an anti-infantry squad although it's in the same tech as the Sniper. It's not quite short-range (Which is where shocktroopers excel) and it's not quite long range (Where all axis squads and Guards excel).

I think the Penal would benefit from being brought down from 270 MP to 240. It would give players a rather interesting choice of either going for conscripts, which offer flexibility in the late game (With AT nades) or Penals, which are much better anti-infantry (as well as scaleable anti-infantry because of the upgradeable flamethrowers) for the same price but much worse late game prospectives.

Also, although I know this would be a little far-fetched, it'de be interesting to move the AT nade upgrade to T2 as well so that you can't get AT conscripts AND penals. This would also mean that it's harder to support snipers with conscripts.

Of course this is speculation and even finishing this sentence, I'm realising giant balance holes in this change. Still, could be interesting.

Personally, I think the Penal is in an extremely awkward position as far as teching goes: The squad aims to be an anti-infantry squad although it's in the same tech as the Sniper. It's not quite short-range (Which is where shocktroopers excel) and it's not quite long range (Where all axis squads and Guards excel).

I think the Penal would benefit from being brought down from 270 MP to 240. It would give players a rather interesting choice of either going for conscripts, which offer flexibility in the late game (With AT nades) or Penals, which are much better anti-infantry (as well as scaleable anti-infantry because of the upgradeable flamethrowers) for the same price but much worse late game prospectives.

Also, although I know this would be a little far-fetched, it'de be interesting to move the AT nade upgrade to T2 as well so that you can't get AT conscripts AND penals. This would also mean that it's harder to support snipers with conscripts.

Of course this is speculation and even finishing this sentence, I'm realising giant balance holes in this change. Still, could be interesting.

Did you just suggest making the already crappy tactic even more hellbent on lacking flexibility?

And making penals more like conscripts, even though the topic is to diversify them from conscripts?

Did you just suggest making the already crappy tactic even more hellbent on lacking flexibility?

And making penals more like conscripts, even though the topic is to diversify them from conscripts?

You're mistaken if you think Penals are meant to be a flexible squad.

Also, the change is aiming to add flexibility to the overall game. The 240mp change to penals would make them MORE favourable than conscripts in terms of anti-infantry (If the squad reinforce was also changed to 20 as well). Of course, since Penals don't have any AT, they wouldn't be effective in the late game so it would give a Soviet player the rather interesting choice of choosing between slightly worse off conscripts which scale much better due to AT nades, or equally as expensive Penals which perform better in the earlier game but at the expense of your late game.

Like I said before though, there are obvious flaws in what I'm proposing and I doubt such a large change at this point in balance would ever go through.

You're mistaken if you think Penals are meant to be a flexible squad.

Also, the change is aiming to add flexibility to the overall game. The 240mp change to penals would make them MORE favourable than conscripts in terms of anti-infantry (If the squad reinforce was also changed to 20 as well). Of course, since Penals don't have any AT, they wouldn't be effective in the late game so it would give a Soviet player the rather interesting choice of choosing between slightly worse off conscripts which scale much better due to AT nades, or equally as expensive Penals which perform better in the earlier game but at the expense of your late game.

I thought this thread involved making Penals flexible in attempt to fill the gaps that every other faction has filled.

And conscripts dont scale at all. Ill keep my maxim spam with a helping ZiS than changing red to magenta.

Screw Soviet faction, right? ...

There needs to be incentive to play the Soviet faction, dealing with incapabilities isnt very fun...