Diversifing the DPS roles of Penals and Cons

Would it be too wild of a change what i´m gonna propose now?

Penals:
1-Increase price to 300-340mp

2A-Give them mosin (Guard accuracy) and 1 DP. Let them be able to upgrade to a 2nd DP for 45muni.
-Flamer upgrade replaces mosins and DP for flamer and SVTs (performance as now but for 30-45muni. The price difference is accounting for the mp increase of the squad)

or
2B-Either switch the SVT profile to make them more of a long range squad (as before, like G43)
-Reduce to 3 SVT with increased performance and give 3 mosins (con level) while mantaining desire DPS (give mosins with a little increased accuracy to PPSH Guards).
-Flamer stays equal as now.


Intention:
On either case i´m looking for a more different role/range for penals while also giving them a bit more estable dps. That´s the reason why i´m either giving them DP or reducing the number of SVTs.

This comes as an answer to the actual "problem" or performing of specialized weapons. See PGs for example. Eventhough they have great DPS, a "snipe/crit" makes it drop too fast making their ease of use not so good in comparison to things like LMG grens. US doesnt have such a unit but see for example as OKW with Obers or Panzerfusiliers (vs Falls/JLI without taking account there spawn on buildings or other abilities)


PD: weapon choice and performance are roughly an aproximation/idea of what they would be doing. It´s not strictly what i´m asking.

Yes that's very wild.

I've always wanted to see the DP as a non-doctrinal upgrade for either penals or cons, gated by a t3 or t4 requirement, on top of that an upgrade called "Improved Logistics" the cost of a time attack T-70, which is pretty much what the effect of 2 DPs on x amount of squads would do. Muni upgrades gated by 190 fuel, I think its a fair price to choose whether you want better late game inf or faster armor.

Won't happen though, as far is it is now Sov is holding fine. I find it to be the most boring faction right now due to its lack of "flavor" upgrades like the other 3 factions get. Just a lack of choices when it comes down to the faction itself, not considering commanders.

It would be cool to see Penals as some sort of mid-tier infantry with SVTs serving as a sort of G43 equivalent. How to balance that, I have no idea, but something needs to be changed because they're almost completely redundant in their current form.

Hmm. Like I said previously, I would cut their flamethrower. It's redundant since Combat Engineers already have it and it also overlaps to a degree with Satchel charge (house clearing / destroying etc). Besides that, I hate that flamethrowers sometimes cause uncancellable unit reactions which make it impossible to avoid the satchel.

I'm all for a redesign of the Penals, but if you do something big, I'd rather do it all the way.

Replace penals with a "Guards Rifle" squad consisting of 6 Guard entities armed with the Mosin, placed at 300 MP. Give them a grenade as well, like normal Guards. Strength wise they are slightly inferior to Grens per entity (Gren = 60 MP / entity, these guards would be 50), but the whole squad of course better then.
Not sure about upgrades or maybe make the squad more expensive and spawn with one. As you may know I hate upgrades (since they are hard to balance). Possible would be some sidegrade. 60 munition, 3 SVT-40 and 3 AVT-40 (basically same model, just allows to burst in close range when standing still) to switch them from long range focus to short / mid range focus and keep them weapon wise above Conscript levels.

To compensate for this, the other "Guards" squad would need a rename. To show their 'elite' of the elite status maybe something like "Taman Guards"?

I'd make them use the flamethrowers while on the move >

Would it be too wild of a change what i´m gonna propose now?

Penals:
1-Increase price to 300-340mp

2A-Give them mosin (Guard accuracy) and 1 DP. Let them be able to upgrade to a 2nd DP for 45muni.
-Flamer upgrade replaces mosins and DP for flamer and SVTs (performance as now but for 30-45muni. The price difference is accounting for the mp increase of the squad)

or
2B-Either switch the SVT profile to make them more of a long range squad (as before, like G43)
-Reduce to 3 SVT with increased performance and give 3 mosins (con level) while mantaining desire DPS (give mosins with a little increased accuracy to PPSH Guards).
-Flamer stays equal as now.


Intention:
On either case i´m looking for a more different role/range for penals while also giving them a bit more estable dps. That´s the reason why i´m either giving them DP or reducing the number of SVTs.

This comes as an answer to the actual "problem" or performing of specialized weapons. See PGs for example. Eventhough they have great DPS, a "snipe/crit" makes it drop too fast making their ease of use not so good in comparison to things like LMG grens. US doesnt have such a unit but see for example as OKW with Obers or Panzerfusiliers (vs Falls/JLI without taking account there spawn on buildings or other abilities)


PD: weapon choice and performance are roughly an aproximation/idea of what they would be doing. It´s not strictly what i´m asking.

I think their price is fine as it is but I wouldn't complain if it's 300 MP. 340 MP on the other hand I find to harsh for this unit.

Your 2 suggestions are really cool. Sovjets could have a fine standard non - doctrinal infantry that way!

Considering tech based infantry choices overall (which just got a ton more complicated with WF), I tend to side with suggestions of making Penals a 300-340 MP "blank slate" kind of unit.

What I mean with "blank slate" is they hit the field as SVTs, but can then, at Muni cost, be upgraded with ONE choice from the overall Sov infantry weapon loadouts.

So for example 2xDPs, or 2xATR, or perhaps a Flamer+PPSHs option for close quarters.

My reasoning behind this, is to make Penals a baseline tech unit that allows a wider potential Commander selection, without having to rely on Commanders to provide the typically specialised infantry options that Sov relies on from those.

SVTs are good. Satchel is quite a nuke, but why not.

What Sov is lacking in base tech tree, is a diversiable baseline infantry option.
I think Penals can provide that, if a wide upgrade potential is implemented.

You probably wpuldnt field more than 1-2, (due to cost) but the upgrade variety adds a real option to what it is you are actually needing in that match, without having to rely on Commander specific infantry.

Know what I mean?

As a result, Penals can fill the "gap" in whichever Commander choice, as far as specialised infantry goes.
Which imo is exactly what hard tech units should do. Provide a baseline around which Commanders are differentiated.

I don't know why people say Con's are terrible, they aren't. In cover they can more than pull their weight vs any Okw infantry except Obers, and upgraded Fusiliers.

If people used Con's like they use Riflemen they'd complain less and see how well they can perform - at least early game, but late game all you need is tank spam

Rename penals to strelky. Give them mosin nagants and 1 dp. Cost increase to 300. Also give them a grenade.


Holy shit, red army is no longer based on stereotypes and cliches.

I'd make them use the flamethrowers while on the move >

That actually could be what they need.

Rename penals to strelky. Give them mosin nagants and 1 dp. Cost increase to 300.


Holy shit, red army is no longer based on stereotypes and cliches.

My opinion pretty much, remove the satchel and give it something else, maybe just like the scripts.

Now create a new commander just for penal troops (they weren't common and mixed with the rest of the army) This commander is based on suicidal assaults. It gets Penal troops armed with PPSH and Satchels. I don't have any ideas right now for the rest but you get the basic idea.

I don't know why people say Con's are terrible, they aren't. In cover they can more than pull their weight vs any Okw infantry except Obers, and upgraded Fusiliers.

What brings you to this conclusion?

Conscripts are the worst baseline infantry in the game. This does not mean they are terrible, but saying that they can pull their weight is plain not true. They can in the first few minutes of the game, but unlike Axis and USF infantry, they don't scale nearly as much and are heavily outclassed later on in the game. The only exception is when they have PPSH-41s on close-quarters maps, in which case they can be decent even in later stages of the game.

Considering tech based infantry choices overall (which just got a ton more complicated with WF), I tend to side with suggestions of making Penals a 300-340 MP "blank slate" kind of unit.

What I mean with "blank slate" is they hit the field as SVTs, but can then, at Muni cost, be upgraded with ONE choice from the overall Sov infantry weapon loadouts.

So for example 2xDPs, or 2xATR, or perhaps a Flamer+PPSHs option for close quarters.

My reasoning behind this, is to make Penals a baseline tech unit that allows a wider potential Commander selection, without having to rely on Commanders to provide the typically specialised infantry options that Sov relies on from those.

SVTs are good. Satchel is quite a nuke, but why not.

What Sov is lacking in base tech tree, is a diversiable baseline infantry option.
I think Penals can provide that, if a wide upgrade potential is implemented.

You probably wpuldnt field more than 1-2, (due to cost) but the upgrade variety adds a real option to what it is you are actually needing in that match, without having to rely on Commander specific infantry.

Know what I mean?

As a result, Penals can fill the "gap" in whichever Commander choice, as far as specialised infantry goes.
Which imo is exactly what hard tech units should do. Provide a baseline around which Commanders are differentiated.

Besides the PTRS upgrade, thats what i have in mind. Since the change on T2 price, i think it´s acceptable to have T1 as purely an AI tier. And even if you add ATR uprades to Penals, that won´t provide a real threat to anything besides a 222 (we still have to see more people with Conscripts PTRS commander and see how it works).

@Marcus2389 as milkacow says, the flamer is kinda redundant with CE and even if they are given the capacity of flamin on the move, it would still be the "same" role as now with cons and suffer from the same problems with other assault units on late game.

Penals should be the long range DPS unit for soviet faction.

Currently, all soviet infantry suffers about being mid-short range effective only.

Penals should be the long range DPS unit for soviet faction.

Currently, all soviet infantry suffers about being mid-short range effective only.

The soviets are a pretty aggressive faction overall, the last thing we need is a suicide unit to become the long range one. If replaced by strelkovy, they could just be your standard front line infantry with SVTs.

Just bring back the old Penals. When they had slightly more long range DPS than LMG grens. Price increase to 320. At 340 back then they both vetted slower and had DPS drop off faster than LMG grens making them kind of crappier and a lot more expensive.

The soviets are a pretty aggressive faction overall, the last thing we need is a suicide unit to become the long range one. If replaced by strelkovy, they could just be your standard front line infantry with SVTs.

Psst, they don't have autodestruction button, they are as suicidal squad as rifles or grenadiers or sturmpios.

Currently, all soviet infantry suffers about being mid-short range effective only.

guards.

guards.

I wish best soviet ranged AI squad wasn't AT squad.