Diversifing the DPS roles of Penals and Cons

As has been pointed out, Penal units where not (usually) unequipped for their dangerous roles. Yes, some commanders probably cared less if they died, but that is arbitrary in war. Soldiers will always die, in every engagement. What matters, is mission success, and in order to do that, umits mist be supplied and armed to complete the mission (despite higher attrtition).

Even with a Penal unit, its pointless to send them into dangerous mission, without the means to complete it.

The really paradoxical thing about criticism of Penals inCoh2, is that it actually seems to be the Sov supporters primarily who are misrepresenting Penals as a "suicide throwaway unit", not the game itself. Penal DPS and cost, is not throwaway. They are NOT a suicide unit. Yet some people, especially those nominally empathetic to the Sov military historyseem to keep insisting on the stereotype, though the game, actually, doesnt ay all portray them as suicide disposable units.

They are expensive. They have good weapons. How is that representing them as suicide expendable units?

Makes no sense.

The name of it speaks for itself. Not being treated like crap doesnt come in mind when thinking of a penal unit.

Thats why a simple rename of strelkovy and such should clear these people's minds.

Penal how they made in the game - Marines

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The name of it speaks for itself. Not being treated like crap doesnt come in mind when thinking of a penal unit.

Thats why a simple rename of strelkovy and such should clear these people's minds.

Why change it though?

That would be spitting on the accomplishments and sacrifices Penal units committed to, under very difficult circumstances.

Penal units pulled off some fantastic accomplishments of bravery and soldiery. Many of the assigned individuals where only guitly of simple "political" crimes, as perceived under the pervasive ideological atmosphere of the time (more or less globally, in different forms). At best, they performed amazing successes, even under duress, at worst, their death was nonetheless in the service of their nation and war effort (especially if unduly commanded to suicide missions by an insane officer, which makes them martyrs nonetheless).

Why change it? Penal units accomplishments and sacrifices where real and important, and under very difficult circumstances.

The really paradoxical thing about criticism of Penals inCoh2, is that it actually seems to be the Sov supporters primarily who are misrepresenting Penals as a "suicide throwaway unit", not the game itself. Penal DPS and cost, is not throwaway. They are NOT a suicide unit. Yet some people, especially those nominally empathetic to the Sov military historyseem to keep insisting on the stereotype, though the game, actually, doesnt ay all portray them as suicide disposable units.

You need a suicide squad?
Strafniki are meant to die!
Just another dead strafniki, no great loss

The audio and flavor texts ingame very much point to them being a suicide squad at every opportunity, even if game mechanics wise it hasn't made any sense since early beta.

So you want Penals to be a suicide squad?

They arent. Not in stats, or cost.

The audio and text represent an attitude of some commanders, and of general opinion, of them.
This was not exclusive to Soviets. All Penal battalions, globally, have always suffered this stigma.

Doesnt change the history of their actual accomplishments and sacrifices though.

This is exsctly what makes criticism of Penals so ironic, especially from Sov empathisers.

They argue that Penals are represented as suicide units, when infact their stats and costs are the exact opposite.

This kind of criticism makes no logical sense.

Why change it though?

That would be spitting on the accomplishments and sacrifices Penal units committed to, under very difficult circumstances.

Penal units pulled off some fantastic accomplishments of bravery and soldiery. Many of the assigned individuals where only guitly of simple "political" crimes, as perceived under the pervasive ideological atmosphere of the time (more or less globally, in different forms). At best, they performed amazing successes, even under duress, at worst, their death was nonetheless in the service of their nation and war effort (especially if unduly commanded to suicide missions by an insane officer, which makes them martyrs nonetheless).

Why change it? Penal units accomplishments and sacrifices where real and important, and under very difficult circumstances.

Because penalized criminals will fight better than the whole of the Red Army. Thats a massive insult. A unit of real status can perform that way, and penals can perhaps be in a commander where they are even more useful than they are now.

I dont remember this game because called Company of Penals. The point of this game isnt to glorify Soviet Penal Troops as the best stock infantry the Soviets have available. Why cant there ever be some real Russians who know how to shoot? Its like every conscript is in his first battle, and hasnt had any experience at all - but this is for every game. Conscripts do gain experience, or else there wouldnt be Guards.

Because penalized criminals will fight better than the whole of the Red Army. Thats a massive insult. A unit of real status can perform that way, and penals can perhaps be in a commander where they are even more useful than they are now.

Excuse me, what?

Do you have amy military experience?

Every patriot fights just as hard, whether they are penal or not.
Primarily, to save your own life, then, to save the life of your comrades next to you, then to save those back home and finally, for the overriding patriotic principle. Not necessarily in that order.

The accomplishments and sacrifices of Penal troops, many of whom where unfairly judged for silly "political" crimes, is the same of any "free" soldier.

You are the one who is insulting the accomplishments and sacrifices of Penals in the Great Patriotic War.
They fought, and died, like everyone else, but in even harder circumstances.

Excuse me, what?

Do you have amy military experience?

Every patriot fights just as hard, whether they are penal or not.
Primarily, to save your own life, then, to save the life of your comrades next to you, then to save those back home and finally, for the overriding patriotic principle.

The accomplishments and sacrifices of Penal troops, many of whom where unfairly judged for silly "political" crimes, is the same of any "free" soldier.

You are the one who is insulting the accomplishments and sacrifices of Penals in the Great Patriotic War.
They fought, and died, like everyone else, but in even harder circumstances.

Wtf is this? Since when do video games even BOTHER with this? Cant i have some real decent soldiers for once? Might as well make every soviet model be a penal then. Screw the army. USF should have a captured Al Capone and some mobster inmates as the best shock troops in the game.

I dont see any patriotic penals in any other faction, yet i see fulfilled roles that the Soviet faction lacks. If all the SU has is Penals to fill that role, then man, that is sad...

Stop trying to paint the accomplishments and sacrifice of Penals, many of whom where judged unfairly for ridiculuos "political" crimes, as inferior to the rest of the Red Armies.

They fought, and died, the same as everyone else, but in even harder circumstances.

Your attitude is an insult to these mens accomplishments and sacrifice.

As a soldier and an officer myself, I see no difference, at all, between what these men acconplished and sacrificed, to that of any other.

(And yes, as you obliquely pointed out, as a commander of a unit in wartime, i would feel very lucky to have a chicago or nyc mob friend of Capones in my unit. He wouldnt feel lucky though, because I would depend on him as a frontman to remain calm under fire, and not hesitate to kill. All men have their strengths and weaknesses. For a leader, the primary job is recognising those and making the most of them).

Cant we have real soldiers first before the former? I know penals fought and died harder than anyone else, but look at this game! Penals fight harder, but the conscripts are doing the senseless dying. Holy crap soviet faction is screwed. Where are the soldiers? Am i to believe the Soviet Union as criminalistic and the penals as heroes? I do enough criticizing of Russia every day.

Give penals better long range DPS and cut the historical crap.

Its infantry unit as any other.

Brac: Penals are "real soldiers".

Where did you get the idea they are not?

Brac: Penals are "real soldiers".

Where did you get the idea they are not?

By their inevitable fate. I just wanted there to be something more than simply soviet units being meant to die, and designed as fodder.

A hotfix or an addition to penals increasing their long range dps may improve their ability to fight long ranged axis units.

Penal how they made in the game - Marines

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i would so buy a commander that has sov marines armed with tommy gun

Where has this discussion gone??

Brac: Penals are "real soldiers".

Where did you get the idea they are not?

You don't understand what we want. We don't want Yuri the conscript who has no weapons and teleported from 41 to 44 and cant hit anything.
We don't want Ivan the penal troop who got there who knows how.

We want Vasiliy the rifleman. Not too good and not too bad. Definately no worse than that guy named Heinz sitting at the other side of the trenches.
He also has some standard issue grenades and his squad has a dp 28 , just like the other guys. Sure, dp 28 might not the best machinegun, but they make up for having more soldiers in the squad.

Tldr version : soviets need proper infantry

For those that are interested in the history of the strafs i took most of my information here : http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=874

The guys at battlefront usually do a pretty good job at researching. Also Pyl'cyn who was the commander of a straf company wrote a book about it, some of you might be interested in it.

Contrary to popular beliefs, these men were not bad soldiers, they were mostly ex-soldiers and convicts trying to clear their name. There also was some intellectual and other people who did nothing but that's something else. This could be represented in game by having each soldier with a random skill level assigned to him.

As for creating some suicidalish i believe it could be achived by creating some sort of paradox. Giving the unit some tools that are good at one thing only, but not all of them. Like low armor, PPSH only, satchel and flame-throwers. If the commander also lack part of the support necessery for the assault, they become pretty suicidal. Having to get upclose and personal with only part of the necessery equipment for it.

And as everyone said, Strelkovy please.

Edit: the book Pyl'cyn wrote was "Penalty Strike"

Penalty strike is highly recommended, excellent book.

Why the people here insists still in talking about historical accuracy??

Why the people here insists still in talking about historical accuracy??

Because it's suposed to be a game about the sacrifice or real life man (give or take, with a grain of salt). Making look like what it was as much as possible is not only respectful but it helps define the factions better.