Wehrmacht T4

I don't see a thread dedicated to this tier so I thought I'd start one.

Right now when playing wher/ost I find this tier to be pretty much useless due to the teching costs and the costs of the armor. As everyone has noticed panthers are just not worth their price at the moment especially with all the armor spam from allies. The price + the population these heavy units don't really seem viable/cost effective.

I've often wondered hmmmm should I go for a sturmpanzer or just get an ostwind. Right now the ostwind is amazing. Counters both enemy air support and heavy infantry spam for a much lower cost. I can simply spam stugs getting 2 for the price of a panther and since they vet up rather quickly I can use the vet 1 ability to stop armor in their tracks.

The only unit I've found to be necessary to go T4 is the werfer, which even then is still a shaky unit. I find myself always choosing a doctrine that has a Tiger in it as well making T4 even more useless since I have my heavy armor at 11 CP.

There's numerous amounts of combination of units you can counter just about anything very effectively without the need of going T4 as of right now.

Thoughts about of wehr/ost T4???

ostwind is pretty much as good as brummbar after the AOE nerf which is sad. not to mention the panther, which we all know is a tad UP. and the werfer is now the worst rocket based arty in the game..

i actually love the panzerwerfer. if you get close before it shoots to reduce its scatter, you can almost guarantee a squad wipe. its risky, but you can just hide on the other side of trees/buidlings.

unfortunately, i never build t4 anymore. i dont find the panther worth it at all anymore. because of the teching costs, you might as well just get a tiger. you trade a bit of penetration and range for some more hp, armor and the ability to actually hit infantry.

brummbars arent bad, but i think theyre typically too risky to build one in a serious game. theyre useful in infantry heavy games, but that typically means the enemy isnt teching and is saving for heavy tanks, in which case, the last thing you want is a brummbar.

so really im not sure if t4 is the issue, or if its the differences between the tiger and panther. theres very few tanks that require a panthers penetration (kv1, kv2, isu, is2), so for anything besides that a tiger is just plain better.

the werfer is now the worst rocket based arty in the game..

That's like saying gold is worthless because diamonds are worth more. Doesn't change the fact that gold is still worth a lot. Same for the Panzerwerfer. It is a good and really underestimated arty piece, just to get it is the problem.

Well Ostheer are quite good despite not having a T4. I know obviously they do but nobody ever builds it. I think they only need it to add more diversity to the game.

Ost are similar to the new factions, they only have one less usable doctrine. Ost have 5 Tiger docs and USF and OKW each have 6 docs. So it's not too bad.

I think the prices of T4 vehicles are fine but the T4 teching cost needs a significant decrease.

I think the prices of T4 vehicles are fine but the T4 teching cost needs a significant decrease.

i would still never build a panther even if the tech and building were free. tigers are just so much more flexible and durable, without sacrificing a noticeable amount of AT. tiger op or panther up? not sure, but something is wrong

I used to use Panzer Vs all the time back in the day, but have only used it once in the past handful of months. It's my favourite tank of WWII, too, so it's a shame.

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Back in 2013 in team games I would get 1-2 x panther, 1 x brummbar w/spotting scopes and they would do well. The brummbar could stun AFV/smash infantry and Zis and the panther dealt with the AFV.

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Back in 2013 in team games I would get 1-2 x panther, 1 x brummbar w/spotting scopes and they would do well. The brummbar could stun AFV/smash infantry and Zis and the panther dealt with the AFV.

Exactly so I'm trying to figure out what happened with these units. Were they just over nerfed? Is it the introduction of the new factions making this tier/units suck and not worth? Is it just the battle phase that needs price reduction or everything reduced or no price changes and just unit buffs? I just cant seem to find any reason to tech to these units anymore especially when most doctrines have tigers.

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Ostheer as a faction was OP in 2013 and the whole thing was nerfed in 2014. The tech costs were increased down the line.

Panther was once the most OP tank in the game. There was little moving accuracy penalty and v1 blitz turned it into a joke of sorts. It had a big HP pool 960 and the opposition, the T-34s were UP to an irritating extent... much weaker than currently with bad pen and dependent on ramming against panthers.

The differences were staggering- the Panther's price was changed several times and even dipped down to 135 fuel (with lower tech cost than current) although MP increased to 650 or something like that. I remember price changes of 135 to 155 fuel to 500-650 MP mainly. I missed the 175 price increase.

Maybe in team games the Panther was OP. I don't remember it ever being heavily used or OP in 1v1 balance...

Maybe in team games the Panther was OP. I don't remember it ever being heavily used or OP in 1v1 balance...

Panther and Opel combo where OP in team games, but then they beat down panther to the ground and after that they fixed Opel.

1 v 1s were too short in 2013 for panther, so it was up to P4 spam. The unit was thoroughly OP in team games (which most people play and then complain about)

I miss the 2013 Panzer IV. Funny how that works, then it was the best medium tank in the game, the T-34/85 only challenged it. Now it's more expensive and less effective than it ever was. Now you only see StuG / Tiger rushes.

Everyone just think about the price and coming out time of werfer and Katyusha. Then you will lol about the recent buff of Katyusha. If brumbar have 50 range and 130 fuel I will consider to build one.

Ost T4 cost is a strange issue, which Im not sure what to suggest to remedy.

Relic seemed to decide to instead put lategame armor call-ins into most Ost Commanders, rather than making the native T4 choices desirable.

As a result, Panther has been put in a wierd place in terms of cost and effectiveness.
With most Commanders its just faster and more cost effective to use the callin options instead.

In retrospect, it would probably have been better to put Panthers into the very common Tiger callin slot, and put Tigers into T4 instead.

I dont think there is anymore a pracrical way to incentivise Brummbars, and frankly an Ostwind is better in many ways, especially for its additional AA. Im more or less resigned to the realisation that Brummbar will probably remain a "wasted" t4 option throughout the entire lifespan of this game...

I do think something should be done to make Panzerwerfer more accessible though.
Im really tempted to suggest it get moved to T3, but that would also just make t4 altogether undesirable even more than now.

Ostheer t4 is really really sad atm you only have 3 units and only one is really worth the teching the panzerwerfer.

T4 is a long expensive road to hoe, and gets you three units that are of little use. Two of them (Panther and Werfer) vastly underperform, and the Brumbar is a niche unit and hardly worth teching for solely.

Either buff Panther and Werfer or reduce the cost of these units. Alternatively you could do both (buff and cost change).

Panther needs to be lethal to tanks for its placement in the tier. Right now it struggles against anything more than a low cost medium tank.

Werfer needs to halt blobs in their tracks. As it stands it mostly just makes some noise before the Kats kill it with a rain of death.

Never ever, build T4 as whermacht as it is now. NEVER!