Wehrmacht T4

What do you mean exactly?
Not sure I understand.

http://www.coh2.org/topic/20371/oh-swapping-fuel-cost-of-bp2-and-t3

making OH panther equal to OKW panther and switching the battlephase and building cost should make T4 a lot better.

Unfortunately in order for Panther to be used more often (being transformed into a choice) all these must be done (even if we are talking about small adjustments in each case):
- decrease building cost;
- buff it somehow to make it more reliable (for instance buffing its AI or armor or health stats)
- decrease WM phases costs.

If any of these is forgoten, panther will be used in the same numbers as today. And don't worry there will be no "Panther spam" anymore. The Opel blitz it's not a choice anymore in team games.

OKW Panther has, in no particular order:

30% smaller scatter penalty on the move (1.7 vs 2 multiplication)
30% smaller accuracy penalty on the move (0.65 vs 0.5 multiplication)
up to 40% higher accuracy when standing still (0.035 vs 0.025 far)
25% higher dps on hull MG (8.1 vs 6.4)


plus it has higher vet bonuses and more of them. But those are the base stat differences.

Thanks a lot for bringing clear numbers to what i was saying

Thanks a lot for bringing clear numbers to what i was saying

Indeed! You learn something new everyday!

T4 doesn't need a teching cost decrease.

Going T4 should be a risk, I don't see why Ostheer should be able to have all their tech unlocked every game when the soviets are locked out of half of their buildings in almost every game because of the tech costs, add to that that soviets t3 and t4 have completely different purposes and the problem is even bigger than not being able to go t4 for ostheer, after all I don't see anyone whining about the fact that some doctrines are mandatory for soviets to fill gaps left by their tech choice? (ie going T1 without guards).

The panther just needs better anti infantry at close range (given that it has 50 range), that's it.

T4 doesn't need a teching cost decrease.

Going T4 should be a risk, I don't see why Ostheer should be able to have all their tech unlocked every game when the soviets are locked out of half of their buildings in almost every game because of the tech costs, add to that that soviets t3 and t4 have completely different purposes and the problem is even bigger than not being able to go t4 for ostheer, after all I don't see anyone whining about the fact that some doctrines are mandatory for soviets to fill gaps left by their tech choice? (ie going T1 without guards).

The panther just needs better anti infantry at close range (given that it has 50 range), that's it.

/facepalm

And as you can see (if you took the time to read the topic, which i highly doubt), it is a risk nobody is willing to take. In life, taking a risk should (at least sometimes) bring some kind of reward. Wehr T4 is, simply put, not worth it. But you seem to think every goddamn Wehr doctrine is playable, and the faction is not trapped in some kind of "mandatory doctrine", like you claim the Soviets are.

I won't discuss the soviet end of the matter, since this is a topic about Wehr T4, and i don't have a clue about soviet balance, at least i'm honest.

If you think Wehr T4 is fine as it is, when everyone agrees that it is completely useless (and nobody uses it, which further prove the issue), can you at least bring solid arguments backing your claim ? I guess you can't, and i guess you don't play Wehrmacht neither.

rant

1.it is a risk nobody is willing to take

Debatable, I don't see why the people pushing for buffs should be taken as an example, the risk is based on how the game is going and your opponents choices, also the fact that the current meta revolves around call ins is a different matter and has nothing to do with the effectiveness of ostheer t4 or its pricing, if anything call ins should be made more difficult to get to to incentivate teching up.

2.But you seem to think every goddamn Wehr doctrine is playable

I don't see how that has anything to do with me or anything I have said.

3.and the faction is not trapped in some kind of "mandatory doctrine", like you claim the Soviets are

Again, what is your point, what are you trying to say here.

4.I won't discuss the soviet end of the matter

You just did

5.If you think Wehr T4 is fine as it is, when everyone agrees that it is completely useless(and nobody uses it, which further prove the issue)

Refer to n.1, T4 is effective, call ins are just easier to play around.

6.I guess you can't, and i guess you don't play Wehrmacht neither.

This is silly, am I arguing with a child? What's the point of attacking me it's not going to prove anything.

Someone made an excellent point about doctrine tanks.


I feel like both Soviets and Wehr (and Americans with the easy 8) tend to favour using doctrine tanks and not bother with the necessary tech structures. IMO they should require the tech structures for these call ins to be used.


I liked it better when doctrine units replaced existing units and had to be produced...

Even more than fuel teching manpower costs are brutal..in games especially vs americans where u are under constant pressure from rifles this is crippling.Consider, to get to T4 u are stalling with paks and grens essentially both costing heavy investments in manpower and reinforce..on top of this u would need fuel cahes to get that panther out in good time.Combine these MP bleed along with huge teching cost and its just plain unappealing when u get the final end result-the panther which is as i said before a glorified meatshield with a dud gun and a drunk gunner,the wehr version at least.Even if u went T3 u would rather use p4s or stugs and instead of going t4 use that mp to buff ur gren/pak support and fuel to get another p4 or stug or save for a tiger.These are well rounded machines that will also help in AI rather than a niche 'tank hunter' which can't hunt at all and has to flee from first AT gun.

Someone made an excellent point about doctrine tanks.


I feel like both Soviets and Wehr (and Americans with the easy 8) tend to favour using doctrine tanks and not bother with the necessary tech structures. IMO they should require the tech structures for these call ins to be used.


I liked it better when doctrine units replaced existing units and had to be produced...

^^^ Callins being tied to teching is a very simple, yet effective solution in making sure that players cant skip tech in order to get the best tanks. So yes, im hoping Relic is considering this solution instead of screwing up call in units individually. You tech all the way to t4 - then you deserve to call in heavy tanks.

Ostheer t4 price being improved as well so t4 isnt suicide.

(And the CP and unit type being tied to the required tech; ie, a light vehicle call in requires a tier with light vehicles to be acquired and so on)

Someone made an excellent point about doctrine tanks.


I feel like both Soviets and Wehr (and Americans with the easy 8) tend to favour using doctrine tanks and not bother with the necessary tech structures. IMO they should require the tech structures for these call ins to be used.


I liked it better when doctrine units replaced existing units and had to be produced...

Totally agree.

THIS is the solution.

However, do not replace existing units. Limiting choices sucks. The more units the better. I HATED that with passion.

T4 doesn't need a teching cost decrease.

Going T4 should be a risk, I don't see why Ostheer should be able to have all their tech unlocked every game when the soviets are locked out of half of their buildings in almost every game because of the tech costs, add to that that soviets t3 and t4 have completely different purposes and the problem is even bigger than not being able to go t4 for ostheer, after all I don't see anyone whining about the fact that some doctrines are mandatory for soviets to fill gaps left by their tech choice? (ie going T1 without guards).

The panther just needs better anti infantry at close range (given that it has 50 range), that's it.

Soviet faction is quite good now, maybe the strongest faction now, so no discussion here.
Would you explain why Ostheer should tech to T4 spending 200+160 manpower while soviet only need 240 manpower? And why USF can get to T4 with 1 infantry unit for free only cost 200 manpower and 80 fuel? Allright both OK if the Ostheer T4 units are good enough, but now panther and Brummbar are really not effective.

T4 doesn't need a teching cost decrease.

Going T4 should be a risk, I don't see why Ostheer should be able to have all their tech unlocked every game when the soviets are locked out of half of their buildings in almost every game because of the tech costs, add to that that soviets t3 and t4 have completely different purposes and the problem is even bigger than not being able to go t4 for ostheer, after all I don't see anyone whining about the fact that some doctrines are mandatory for soviets to fill gaps left by their tech choice? (ie going T1 without guards).

The panther just needs better anti infantry at close range (given that it has 50 range), that's it.

Last I checked the game does not grey out soviet tech buildings when the alternative tier is built.

360/90 fuel for wehr to get T4 with its assortment of rather underperforming units is "fine", but soviets having to pay 240/120 is completely impossible to deal with, apparently.

T4 doesn't need a teching cost decrease.

The panther just needs better anti infantry at close range (given that it has 50 range), that's it.

Hmm, yea. This is the fix for underperforming tank that main role is hunting other tanks. Tank that is built for just one reason, and that is to damage and destroy other tanks, very expensive metal box with low dmg and bad acc just need better AI. Cant wait to build panther to damage some infantry...

You, sir, are a genius!

Back on topic, i wouldn't mind if they put panther to do ZERO damage against infantry, better acc and more DMS so it can tackle other tanks and im happy!

This is merely a suggestion, which could work considering certain circumstances.

What if the bumbar and the panzer werfer were moved to T3 and the ostwind and panzer 4 moved to T4 a long with a reduction in teching costs? Right now the panzer werfer is not nearly at lethal as the katusha and it when considering you can get a stuka if youre OKW fairly early I dont see this tipping the balance over the cliff. You still have stugs, which can counter early T34s and other early tanks with the brummbar coming out early enough to counter early elite infantry much like the ostwind.

With this change along with the teching prices reduced could significantly make T4 viable. The ostwind with its anti-air would still be a useful unit late game among other qualities it carries. The p4 just being an all around good tank. This would be similar to how t4 was in vcoh where t3 had the nebelwerfer and the stug, Officer to make you look super nazi.

Thoughts?

This is merely a suggestion, which could work considering certain circumstances.

What if the bumbar and the panzer werfer were moved to T3 and the ostwind and panzer 4 moved to T4 a long with a reduction in teching costs? Right now the panzer werfer is not nearly at lethal as the katusha and it when considering you can get a stuka if youre OKW fairly early I dont see this tipping the balance over the cliff. You still have stugs, which can counter early T34s and other early tanks with the brummbar coming out early enough to counter early elite infantry much like the ostwind.

With this change along with the teching prices reduced could significantly make T4 viable. The ostwind with its anti-air would still be a useful unit late game among other qualities it carries. The p4 just being an all around good tank. This would be similar to how t4 was in vcoh where t3 had the nebelwerfer and the stug, Officer to make you look super nazi.

Thoughts?

I find it weird, as it would only delay the arrival of the salvatory first PIV of the Wehr player. Having to go through BP2 Upgrade and BP3 to just reach Panzer 4, which is (at least currently) the core of Wehrmacht armor, would mean players would even more rely on Tier 2 => Tiger unlock than now. At least imo. For it to work, it would require drastic reduction in teching costs, + BP3 to be somewhat instant upgrades, which i find too risky of inducing other balance issues.

I find it weird, as it would only delay the arrival of the salvatory first PIV of the Wehr player. Having to go through BP2 Upgrade and BP3 to just reach Panzer 4, which is (at least currently) the core of Wehrmacht armor, would mean players would even more rely on Tier 2 => Tiger unlock than now. At least imo. For it to work, it would require drastic reduction in teching costs, + BP3 to be somewhat instant upgrades, which i find too risky of inducing other balance issues.

Well to be fair thats how it was in vcoh (glorious shrek blobs, not saying we should shrek blob in coh2 though). PLayers relied on t2 heavily. Once again though you still have the stug, which in many cases is still good against infantry as well. The advantage here is the early arty potential and early brummbar.

Stug III is a great tank especially for its price. People really under estimate it. There really seems to be so much reliance on the p4 though.

revert brum scatter, reduce panther fuel cost

Well to be fair thats how it was in vcoh (glorious shrek blobs, not saying we should shrek blob in coh2 though). PLayers relied on t2 heavily. Once again though you still have the stug, which in many cases is still good against infantry as well. The advantage here is the early arty potential and early brummbar.

Stug III is a great tank especially for its price. People really under estimate it. There really seems to be so much reliance on the p4 though.

The reliance on T2 in vCoH was mainly because of the Grenadiers coming from T2, and Grenspam with Medic Bunker and Vet was really good. With support from AT guns (free AT gun stealth for Wehrmacht, anyone?) and maybe a halftrack (that could be upgraded to Flamethrowers or Walking Stuka as needed) you didn't NEED anything from higher tiers.

And I agree, the Stug is a pretty good vehicle in its own right, especially considering the price.

Right now, I'd say the problem with T4 isn't so much the teching costs- people would be getting it at least occasionally if the units in it were worth it.
But as it stands, the Panther is a one-trick pony, and not even that good at what it does. The same is true for the Brummbär.