State of the balance according to Imperial Dane

I'd say he's pretty spot on. What's your opinion?


Edit:
I know It goes without saying but please comment only after watching the video.

USF's Infantry Company's LMG needs tweaking. Rifle Company is damn beast, needs some adjustments.

Soviets: I have no idea why it's so hard to reduce the maxim's crew number.

Dane has it right about the Wehrmacht, their teching cost is way too high compared to the USF. Getting T4 doesn't worth it and right now countering USF depends on commanders.

Assault Grenadiers are still good vs rifles on closed maps.

OKW:
Jagdpanzer IV is amazing, if supported with volks + raketen-4. I saw tons of them being succesfull.

Kübelwagen is very good, just requires some micro, mine always pays off.

Volks will be good once the rifles will be balanced, if neccessary they can get a little bit of long range DPS increase, but this is radical, they should be defensive/support units and doesn't deserve any AI upgrade.

About their economy, they do well. An upgrade for the truck would be cool to remove the the -1/3 income from the sector they are occupying.

Pz II is very good if you rush it (keep it stationary). Moving it to an another would be awfull. We knew what happened when early, well-microed light tanks come out........

Well he mentioned how Elite troops is not broken, which I disagree on. Is rifle company worse? probably, but by no means does that mean elite troops is fair.

a video is probably the worst format for balance discussion. with text you can at least skip the slow and boring parts

But I agree with thunderhun. jagdpanzers are amazing when screened with volks and raketen. They seem to be like a deluxe su85 with more armor, cloak>tracking : want to dodge a 60 range shot , pop holdfire and just quickly disable and enable cloak to let the enemy tanks retarget stuff. He is wrong about tracking, it only shows units on the minimap now.
Also ai upgrade for volks but cons are fine?
Pumas are great, decent AI and 50 range. I dotn see why he would rather have the expensive panthers.

Pretty much agree with nothing he said except for some minor Ostheer things (FHT upgrade should be cheaper because it's just competing with far more viable munition abilities at the point in the game it is in now, and the good old german T4 in 1vs1 issue). In particular his opinions on OKW are beyond anything that could be called sane.

panzer grens are actually used plenty. They have a different role that people still cant grasp. They win at short and medium range vs everything except shocks at close. You just need to keep them in cover like Sturm pios.

american late game does need help. watching streamers and from personal experience any game after 20 minutes becomes a huge struggle. All German infantry out scales basic rifle men, and at this time they have veterancy on their weapons teams and tanks which are superior. A P4 still goes toe to toe with the Jackson and it cost more. The problem with US late game is that when the populations start to even out and veterancy is gained, there is no way to really "swarm" your opponent to keep the edge. You are forced into unfavorable engagements in order to keep the MP drain going so your opponents can not get their really great stuff out. Really the late game problem is armor though. with no heavy armor, US faction cannot spear head any assault well on even terms. Their tanks are paper thin and still expensive in both population and resources. See, as a faction designed about mobility and having lots of cheap effective tanks, they sure are not cheap, so you cannot gain a numerical advantage which is needed.

if maxim gets nerfed at range, itll be fine, they do not need to buff the mg42 as well and really throw things out of wack

Bazookas still do terrible damage, I never see bazookas because they cost so much and do so little compared to getting an early tank or AT guns.

Pumas still over preforming. they still are an armored car that beats tanks. 1v1 it can still win vs a sherman not even using its aimed shot (which for sure puts the nail in its coffin)

panzer fusilliers need to be nerfed. I have been using them for some time now, they out scale, out preform every infantry in the game. I think the problem is that they retain such huge DPS at long range

US light howizer is pretty terrible, a small price decrease would still see it not used because it simply does not do anything unless it is barraging a building

Volks do not need an AI infantry upgrade just like conscripts do not. They just need a bit of a dps update to put them on par with Grens and conscripts. they do out scale other infantry

Jaeger infantry just like fusiliers need to be toned down


panther needs a fuel price decrease, It is too expensive to be viable very often especially for Ostheer which I'm glad Dane pointed out, the large tech cost really puts a hammer down on using them.

I highly disagree with the kubel wagon being useless

I dont understand how he thinks a jagdP4 is terrible. It has way more armor, plenty of penetration, and has a vet one ability that makes it undetectable on the minimap. Its veterancy is flat out amazing and allows it to outscale the heaviest tanks. A vet three JagdP4 in a 1v1 fight kills a KV2. there are no problems with it.
if anything the SU-85 needs a bit of help.

JagdTiger is ment to be the OKW elephant, It would be pretty unfair if it squad wiped all the time.

ISU still needs to be toned down slightly

Flack half track needs to have its set up time halfed. It takes 3 AT grenades to kill it, So its actually the mobility that needs help

Luchas is ment to be a gap filler unit, not to kill everything. Because OKW can place that truck first, What happens if you run into 2 heavy machine guns? you need the luchas to help deal with weapons teams which is why it is in that tier.

Well he mentioned how Elite troops is not broken, which I disagree on. Is rifle company worse? probably, but by no means does that mean elite troops is fair.

I think it's fine, you invest a lot to get that veterancy.

A P4 still goes toe to toe with the Jackson and it cost more.

They cost the same, and the Jackson is supposed to stay out of the range of the Panzer IV. You're either using the Jackson wrong, or you got ambushed or flanked.

Pumas still over preforming. they still are an armored car that beats tanks. 1v1 it can still win vs a sherman not even using its aimed shot (which for sure puts the nail in its coffin)

Light tanks, yeah. Mostly the T-70, the M5 can defeat it easily with it's stun ability. In a slug-fest, it'll likely lose to a T-34/76 or Sherman unless you left HE rounds on.

I dont understand how he thinks a jagdP4 is terrible. It has way more armor, plenty of penetration, and has a vet one ability that makes it undetectable on the minimap. Its veterancy is flat out amazing and allows it to outscale the heaviest tanks. A vet three JagdP4 in a 1v1 fight kills a KV2. there are no problems with it.

I think everyone thinks it's bad because it can't hunt tanks like the SU-85 can.

Luchas is ment to be a gap filler unit, not to kill everything. Because OKW can place that truck first, What happens if you run into 2 heavy machine guns? you need the luchas to help deal with weapons teams which is why it is in that tier.

Luchas are Mexican, Luchs is German

Also, you cannot place that truck first, so the Luchs is deployed much later than any other light vehicle, which is a shame because I feel OKW could seriously benefit from the Luchs.

tl:dw, but in skimming around I agree with most things except his opinions on OKW. He thinks the faction is basically broken. I disagree with many of the things he said about OKW (volksgren terrible, jagdpanzer IV terrible,etc.)

I think it's fine, you invest a lot to get that veterancy.

They cost the same, and the Jackson is supposed to stay out of the range of the Panzer IV. You're either using the Jackson wrong, or you got ambushed or flanked.

Light tanks, yeah. Mostly the T-70, the M5 can defeat it easily with it's stun ability. In a slug-fest, it'll likely lose to a T-34/76 or Sherman unless you left HE rounds on.

I think everyone thinks it's bad because it can't hunt tanks like the SU-85 can.


Luchas are Mexican, Luchs is German

Also, you cannot place that truck first, so the Luchs is deployed much later than any other light vehicle, which is a shame because I feel OKW could seriously benefit from the Luchs.

Something it seems everyone forgets about using the troops training early is that you use the vet three squad to force engagements at their cutoff and fuel. It is such a lobsided fight you can deprive your opponent of the fuel it took to vet that squad in a minute or so, plus all the man power drain it takes to just retreat the vet three squad. THAT is why it is unfair. Most players simply think that it severely hampers your tech path but in reality when you use it correctly you do far more damage to the opponent than it took to get the Vet three.

As for the jagdP4 its a little slower and has poor sight at the cost of being much more effective at killing tanks. It lacks a little rate in fire but scales incredibly well.

While it seems I was wrong about the price comparing the P4 and Jackson, the fight is still a slug fest. Can the Jackson Kite? yea, But SU-85s can also kite but they get flanked. My point is that a main battle tank is almost as good as the Tank destroyer at a large cost making it difficult for US to compete late game.

panzer grens are actually used plenty. They have a different role that people still cant grasp. They win at short and medium range vs everything except shocks at close. You just need to keep them in cover like Sturm pios.

Agreed, but they will never be used very much for anti infantry since Grenadiers do that much better for much cheaper.

american late game does need help. watching streamers and from personal experience any game after 20 minutes becomes a huge struggle. All German infantry out scales basic rifle men, and at this time they have veterancy on their weapons teams and tanks which are superior. A P4 still goes toe to toe with the Jackson and it cost more. The problem with US late game is that when the populations start to even out and veterancy is gained, there is no way to really "swarm" your opponent to keep the edge. You are forced into unfavorable engagements in order to keep the MP drain going so your opponents can not get their really great stuff out. Really the late game problem is armor though. with no heavy armor, US faction cannot spear head any assault well on even terms. Their tanks are paper thin and still expensive in both population and resources. See, as a faction designed about mobility and having lots of cheap effective tanks, they sure are not cheap, so you cannot gain a numerical advantage which is needed.

Rifles are really strong early game and not so much late. If you want to buff their late game, you're gonna have to nerf their early game. US would just be too much to handle otherwise. As for P4, it gets seriously outranged by the Jackson. The Jackson is a glass cannon, not a frontline tank and should not be used as such. Don't send it in Rambo style expecting it to win.

if maxim gets nerfed at range, itll be fine, they do not need to buff the mg42 as well and really throw things out of wack

The MG42 doesn't need a damage buff, it needs to be a suppression weapon to keep enemies at range which it currently does. The only kind of buff it needs is a reduction in the time to acquire target/increase in traverse. So it finds targets and shoots more quickly. It's quite unreliable for firing at units in its arc at the moment.

Bazookas still do terrible damage, I never see bazookas because they cost so much and do so little compared to getting an early tank or AT guns.

They aren't terrible, though they aren't shrecks. They're terrifying in blobs though.

Pumas still over preforming. they still are an armored car that beats tanks. 1v1 it can still win vs a sherman not even using its aimed shot (which for sure puts the nail in its coffin)

If you nerf the Puma there's no reason to play OKW anymore. It's their saving grace against early T34s and M15 Halftracks. And anyway, most of their tanks are supposed to "overperform" in a sense, because they have reduced income and only specialist vehicles, no generalists. The Puma is supposed to be a light, fast tank destroyer, sort of like a mini Jackson, fast, good range (instead of high damage it has high rate of fire), but also very weak, and gets killed easily.

panzer fusilliers need to be nerfed. I have been using them for some time now, they out scale, out preform every infantry in the game. I think the problem is that they retain such huge DPS at long range

Yes, I love these things but I must agree. They are really strong right now.

US light howizer is pretty terrible, a small price decrease would still see it not used because it simply does not do anything unless it is barraging a building

I don't know, a price decrease would do well I think. It's not as horribad as everyone makes it out to be. Yeah it's not amazing, but it also has really long range, longer than the ISG. Plop it in the back and just let it support your stuff.

Volks do not need an AI infantry upgrade just like conscripts do not. They just need a bit of a dps update to put them on par with Grens and conscripts. they do out scale other infantry

Agreed.

Jaeger infantry just like fusiliers need to be toned down

I wouldn't know, I haven't gotten to play with them (thanks Relic...)

panther needs a fuel price decrease, It is too expensive to be viable very often especially for Ostheer which I'm glad Dane pointed out, the large tech cost really puts a hammer down on using them.

Yes, and I think that the entire Ostheer tier system needs to have the building and tech costs reworked.

I highly disagree with the kubel wagon being useless

It has a niche, I think it's largely fine.

I dont understand how he thinks a jagdP4 is terrible. It has way more armor, plenty of penetration, and has a vet one ability that makes it undetectable on the minimap. Its veterancy is flat out amazing and allows it to outscale the heaviest tanks. A vet three JagdP4 in a 1v1 fight kills a KV2. there are no problems with it.
if anything the SU-85 needs a bit of help.

Agreed, except for the part about the SU-85. I don't want to relive the days of the SU-85 spam. That thing was absolutely awful to play against, I quit for around 6 months because of that crap.

JagdTiger is ment to be the OKW elephant, It would be pretty unfair if it squad wiped all the time.

I hate all super ranged units, except for the PAK 43. They don't belong in the game.

ISU still needs to be toned down slightly

See previous comment.

Flack half track needs to have its set up time halfed. It takes 3 AT grenades to kill it, So its actually the mobility that needs help

Yeah the setup time is really limiting it I think. It's too hard to get out of danger when an AT gun appears.

Luchas is ment to be a gap filler unit, not to kill everything. Because OKW can place that truck first, What happens if you run into 2 heavy machine guns? you need the luchas to help deal with weapons teams which is why it is in that tier.

Yeah, but I don't know. I still don't feel quite right about this unit. It still feels out of place, I don't know how to describe it. I can't say that it's useless, but its window of usefulness is still so limited that it's hard to justify spending precious OKW fuel on it. Kind of like the current T70. Don't get me wrong, I never want to relive the days of the 4 minute T70. That was horrible also.

I feel his assesment is quite fair. OKW is the most difficult to play. I find myself conforming to very ridge strategies because of the lack of viable units.

Pretty much disagree with everything, the fact that he considers jagdpanzer a crap tank baffles me.

Cool observations. I really like the one talking about how Volks dont' scale well into late game. Sounds like another core infantry unit I know.

Cool observations. I really like the one talking about how Volks dont' scale well into late game. Sounds like another core infantry unit I know.

The difference being, one of the units being referred to here scales superbly to the late game. The one with the V in its name.

The difference being, one of the units being referred to here scales superbly to the late game. The one with the V in its name.

Now now silly Cruzz. We know that Panzerschreck are useless. (bearly funny)

Pretty much agree with nothing he said except for some minor Ostheer things (FHT upgrade should be cheaper because it's just competing with far more viable munition abilities at the point in the game it is in now, and the good old german T4 in 1vs1 issue). In particular his opinions on OKW are beyond anything that could be called sane.

No problem, not everyone is thinking like you do. I liked the analysis and is definetly made by someone who kmows what he's talking about. Good job Dane!

I'd question Danes ability to know what he is talking about.
At least the ability to be objective, which Cruzz as opposed to Dane actually have.

Something it seems everyone forgets about using the troops training early is that you use the vet three squad to force engagements at their cutoff and fuel. It is such a lobsided fight you can deprive your opponent of the fuel it took to vet that squad in a minute or so, plus all the man power drain it takes to just retreat the vet three squad. THAT is why it is unfair. Most players simply think that it severely hampers your tech path but in reality when you use it correctly you do far more damage to the opponent than it took to get the Vet three.

True, but Vet Rifles / M3 / WC51 can do the same, it's just part of the game. You're still sinking more into those Grenadiers than you would if you had your own T1 Scout Cars.

While it seems I was wrong about the price comparing the P4 and Jackson, the fight is still a slug fest. Can the Jackson Kite? yea, But SU-85s can also kite but they get flanked. My point is that a main battle tank is almost as good as the Tank destroyer at a large cost making it difficult for US to compete late game.

But the Jackson has a huge range advantage as well, if exploited properly the Panzer IV shouldn't get close. The Jackson should be supported as well since it lacks AI abilities.

Cool observations. I really like the one talking about how Volks dont' scale well into late game. Sounds like another core infantry unit I know.

How don't they scale late game well? How. They have shrecks which do more damage than bazookas and get up to vet 5 which when they do, can tank MULTIPLE shots from a sherman before losing enough men to force a retreat.

I would also have to disagree with Imperial Dane as well on most of the things he talked about. Fusiliers and Jaegar Infy need nerf on DPS at some range. They wreck infantry with G43s from long and short range, add an officer and that shit is unreal.

JagdPanzer is good if you know how to use it, keep it supported. Puma is fine, only viable AT vs vehicles early game.

Lots of stuff...

I pretty much agree with everything I'llGetUSomeDay said here. OKW is really strong if you micro well early game and hold to late. Jagdpanzer 4 is on par if not better than jackson. Volks aren't meant to be great infantry at the start but they are invaluable AT later on the game and will be on par with vetted american infantry with vet. Pumas are amazing AT armoured cars that beats tanks and can even do a number on infantry. They're the best AT OKW has for mid game, I'll even say pumas are slightly overperforming atm. Kubel's aren't meant to scale to late game... it's like the jeep and motorbike from coh1. OKW also has the best infantry with ridiculous dps and armour so yeah I disagree with Dane's analysis.