Panther

Except that won't happen and you're going full retard knee jerk here.

And lets hypothetically assume something like this would happen.

It would still be better then KV-1 therefore would cost more then 150fu at least.

I'm ok with 150/155 fuel cost with range and pen nerf-these 2 are mostly superficial attributes right now for panther.people like u use these numbers on paper to make the unit look vastly better than it actually is.
If it costs 175 fuel it needs to do kill tanks fast like jackson.Eitehr by increased damage or faster reload and miss less.Giving it AI is no solution as that would only be a souped up panzer 4 and teh unit would lose its uniqueness.It would be pz 4 basic general tank,panther mid level general tank,tiger high level general tank..boring.

Except that won't happen and you're going full retard knee jerk here.

And lets hypothetically assume something like this would happen.

It would still be better then KV-1 therefore would cost more then 150fu at least.

The KV-1 is just 120 Fuel though, the Panzer IV is 125, the T-34/85 is 130/140. Why does the Panther need such a price gap against the KV-1 in particular, if the T-34/85's price is only a marginal cost increase over the Panzer IV for significant performance increase? The Panther should be priced at around 145 and have it's gun accuracy at range fixed.

I'd argue that given the thing is made of paper(it had 108mm of frontal armor, for comparison, Tiger had 120mm and P4 had 88mm) as well as the lack of effective means for USF to damage engines reliably(RAT nades can miss, no mines outside of M20) or even other armor to screen/spot for it effectively.

While Jackson is effective, I'd much rather use panther for its survivability(which is greatly underestimated in this thread, given tank smoke and return of warp engines).

Decent survivability but all in all you get very little firepower for 175 fuel compared to other TD's or even heavy generalist tank. thats why i favor the KT over building a panther

The KV-1 is just 120 Fuel though, the Panzer IV is 125, the T-34/85 is 130/140. Why does the Panther need such a price gap against the KV-1 in particular, if the T-34/85's price is only a marginal cost increase over the Panzer IV for significant performance increase? The Panther should be priced at around 145 and have it's gun accuracy at range fixed.

You might want to actually play the game.
Or at the very least keep up with recent patches and notes.

KV-1 is 145.

Well sorry I missed one line of notes a few patches ago.

I see what you're logic is now though, KV-1 is overpriced, so Panther must be overpriced too. I don't think that's fair, the two vehicles don't share any role in common, only both being overpriced for what they do. Both should be cost reduced.

No, my logic is following the changes relic does, which means the stronger the armor is, the bigger the price is and many variables add to that and the final cost, such as armor, health, ROF, range, penetration, speed, acceleration, even vet scaling. KV-1 is the closest thing to the panther with similar survivability, but survivability only. It have vastly inferior gun, noticeably inferior acceleration and speed, inferior range, penetration and costs only 30 less.

Now, similar things can be said about 34/85, which have nowhere near the survivabnility(much less armor), but makes up with better penetration, acceleration, speed then KV-1, but still is quite expensive.

Same things for both 76mm doctrinal shermans who pack a punch, but don't really take any.

Hell, recent P4 cost changes only confirms what I'm trying to tell, which is a sum of all stats makes up for the final price and when one units stats are far greater then others, so is the price.

For Panther the dominating stats are speed and acceleration, range(best of all med and heavy tanks, not talking tank destroyers here), armor and jet engines and arguably we could slap AI upgrade that adds up to ~13dps, which is noticeable, no matter how you try to spin it. Thats enough to warrant higher cost relatively to other tanks with lesser stats.

By your logic of "overpriced", probably the only tank that isn't, is the T34/76(again, taking medium armor only into consideration, KV-1 armament doesn't really classify it as heavy armor either).

No, my logic is following the changes relic does, which means the stronger the armor is, the bigger the price is and many variables add to that and the final cost, such as armor, health, ROF, range, penetration, speed, acceleration, even vet scaling. KV-1 is the closest thing to the panther with similar survivability, but survivability only. It have vastly inferior gun, noticeably inferior acceleration and speed, inferior range, penetration and costs only 30 less.

Now, similar things can be said about 34/85, which have nowhere near the survivabnility(much less armor), but makes up with better penetration, acceleration, speed then KV-1, but still is quite expensive.

Same things for both 76mm doctrinal shermans who pack a punch, but don't really take any.

Hell, recent P4 cost changes only confirms what I'm trying to tell, which is a sum of all stats makes up for the final price and when one units stats are far greater then others, so is the price.

For Panther the dominating stats are speed and acceleration, range(best of all med and heavy tanks, not talking tank destroyers here), armor and jet engines and arguably we could slap AI upgrade that adds up to ~13dps, which is noticeable, no matter how you try to spin it. Thats enough to warrant higher cost relatively to other tanks with lesser stats.

By your logic of "overpriced", probably the only tank that isn't, is the T34/76(again, taking medium armor only into consideration, KV-1 armament doesn't really classify it as heavy armor either).

the kv1 does a great job killing infantry your logic is flawed. and yeah the panther has a better gun but that comes with the AT specialist territory.

Again superficial excuses of range and penetration..meaningless stats.Nerf them both..take away these 2 excuses.And fix price at 150.
Or else give jackson like damage and accuracy so it can kill atnsk actually not just penetrate armor and then die or flee due to shit dmg and reload,not to mention accuracy.

Keep in mind kv-1 kills infantry with its price on the kv-1 discussion.And it doesn't miss.

If panther is right at 175 fuel then jackson should cost 140 fuel and t-34/85 150 fuel.

A t-34/85 at 360 mp and 130 fuel ..when in comparison shit pz 4 at 350 mp and 125 fuel is thye biggest joke of all.
U want to fix tanks..if panther is 'fine' then these prices need to go up high as well..jackson 140 and t-85 150.

34/85 costs 140fu it pays 15fu for 160 more hp and bit more pen then P4(lets completely ignore a minor detail that its not even a stock unit). Dual stuff is on a discount. For reference compare Wehr pair of shrecks vs OKW shreck costs since german only comparisons might actually get to you.

Jackson have no armor, no health and weaker penetration then SU-85. Turret and 240dmg is all it has really as it can't even spot for itself like SU-85.

You might want to use P4 this patch instead of spamming tigers to actually see how much its AI was buffed.

Now, following your very own logic, how much should jagdpanzer cost with superior armor and penetration to SU-85? 140fu? More?

34/85 costs 140fu it pays 15fu for 160 more hp and bit more pen then P4(lets completely ignore a minor detail that its not even a stock unit). Dual stuff is on a discount. For reference compare Wehr pair of shrecks vs OKW shreck costs since german only comparisons might actually get to you.

Jackson have no armor, no health and weaker penetration then SU-85. Turret and 240dmg is all it has really as it can't even spot for itself like SU-85.

You might want to use P4 this patch instead of spamming tigers to actually see how much its AI was buffed.

Now, following your very own logic, how much should jagdpanzer cost with superior armor and penetration to SU-85? 140fu? More?

And being doctrinal lets it being tech free-advantage rather than disadvantage.And which t-34/85 is used more dual one or single one.Dual one obviously..if its a discount its a grossly OP one pricewise.OKW shreck cost also includes that winter stuff.

Yeah and its dmg is enough kill tigers in 4 shots.If panther the german 'tank hunter' isn't allowed to kill tanks at 175 fuel,i don't see why t-34/85 and jackson at 130 fuel and 125 fuel should.
I do use it,u don't get to tiger without stug or p4.And its AI is good but nothing godly...but when soviet get a t-34/85 for 10 more mp and 5 fuel..and u try to justify that then you need to check ur brain first.

Whatever - jagd already costs 135 fuel for a 2/3rd income faction.The faction description and reduced income of OKW is supposed to be balanced by powerful and cost effective units.....its what cancels out tehir disadvanatge.Hence stuka,obersoldaten.Jagd isn't even taht powerful or cost effective.And panther certainly isn't.Puma can be said to be cost effective and strong for its price.U want to nerf the powerful OKW units-fine go ahead.But then u will also have to answer teh question..without these units,why does OKW have 2/3rd income?

^
Panther is supposed to be a 'stalk, stop.hit, and run' sort of tank hunter-like a big version of the puma. The high speed is also factored into the price.

^
Panther is supposed to be a 'stalk, stop.hit, and run' sort of tank hunter-like a big version of the puma. The high speed is also factored into the price.

Except the hit part where the whole chain breaks.Even if u get a hit in what does?Ur dmg is avg..ur reload is high and ur accuracy unreliable.Main thing abt the puma is the special shot which panther doesn't have.It doesn't even have enough vision to use its range at which it will most likely miss-u'll flank with a spotter leading u?lol..If ur flanking which what that 'speed' is supposed to be for then u will have to fire on the move.U'll likely miss.Even if u hit ur dmg won't kill stuff quickly and ur reload is bad.Ur also helpless vs bazookas and 1 AT gun even will trouble u.So really this 'tank hunter' is a fairytale.

Relic possibly tried to portray the long range advantage of panther gun in real life over allied mediums by plus 10 range and the best penetration of all german tank guns into the depiction of this unit.However this doesn't translate to ingame effectiveness at all as u'll never really need the penetration except an is-2 which u can flank with ur speed anyway,and range makes little diff due to need for spotting which is not viable in aggressive flanks at most times and its bad accuracy,combined with bad reload and high speed of allied tanks which will allow them to close with impunity in most cases.Thus these largely useless attributes range and pen only serve to burden the unit with an unsustainable price ,just an excuse for allied players to keep this unit dead and out of the game.

Again superficial excuses of range and penetration..meaningless stats.Nerf them both..take away these 2 excuses.And fix price at 150.
Or else give jackson like damage and accuracy so it can kill atnsk actually not just penetrate armor and then die or flee due to shit dmg and reload,not to mention accuracy.

Keep in mind kv-1 kills infantry with its price on the kv-1 discussion.And it doesn't miss.

penetration isn't entirely superficial, especially when dealing with the is2. The kvs also have pretty decent armor on them.

I would say that the range is superficial, however.

penetration isn't entirely superficial, especially when dealing with the is2. The kvs also have pretty decent armor on them.

I would say that the range is superficial, however.

The ability to shoot without getting shot back is superficial? Really?

A well kited tank will be pushed off by a reversing panther without ever landing a hit, map permitting.

That's massive. Especially for slow tanks like the IS2 or KV's

A well kited tank will be pushed off by a reversing panther without ever landing a hit, map permitting.

Considering the Panther's accuracy at long range, it won't land any hits either

Am I the only one that really likes how Panther was tailored recently?
I won't comment on price as I don't know if it's too costly or not, play mostly OKW recently, but when you start to use it to exploit its strengths it does get the job done even against far more superior tanks like IS-2. On good terrain Panther is actually able to circle strafe IS-2 turret.
With one of the war spoils OKW commanders you get fire shell that boosts dmg by quite a lot.
Even as OH you can stale game for a while with PaKs as your AT to be able to field Panther.

It misses at stupid positions in battle that causes it to lose skirmishes with other tanks. And since it misses, you have to wait some more to see it miss and hit the ground again. For what reason is it innaccurate?

Am I the only one that really likes how Panther was tailored recently?
I won't comment on price as I don't know if it's too costly or not, play mostly OKW recently, but when you start to use it to exploit its strengths it does get the job done even against far more superior tanks like IS-2. On good terrain Panther is actually able to circle strafe IS-2 turret.
With one of the war spoils OKW commanders you get fire shell that boosts dmg by quite a lot.
Even as OH you can stale game for a while with PaKs as your AT to be able to field Panther.

Pro-soviet agenda in disguise.

Because an IS2 unsupported is2 easy to come by eh.

They are always backed by Zis or other tanks or cons

You are critical of the Panther- but I find it considerably better than the Jagdpanzer IV, which costs 40 fuel more but in an earlier tier. The OKW is the one tank army. Don't you agree?

Except the hit part where the whole chain breaks.