Balance Changes

The most pressing issue I can see is the Wehrmacht vs Americans matchup. Grenadiers are pretty much useless and are only good for getting sniped off my rifle shots. Machine guns are your best bet but are as susceptible as ever to flanks (meaning if you're not in perfect positions, you're going to lose). Sniper also does good... for a time until the inevitable t1 scout car/AA Halftrack comes out.

- To further prove my point: almost all ESL games played in the WFA Launch Cup were won by Allied armies with the Germans always struggling to survive.

My suggestions:
- Buff Grens. They just suck so hard until they get vet 2/3 and get an LMG. Until then, they can barely hold their own vs Conscripts. They get slaughtered hard by American riflemen. But this can have problems with their scaling.

- Nerf Riflemen. Honestly I'm pretty tired of these guys. They dominate any infantry they see 1v1 and it forces me to hide in a corner with 3 squads to even stand a chance vs them. Their potency makes it impossible to gain any good map control in the early stages of the game.

- Nerf the AA halftrack. This unit is utter horseshit. Comes out 7 min in the game and instantly suppresses everything, has insane Infantry damage, and to top it off, it destroys vehicles too! 221/222 dies like flies to it (even double upgun fails vs 1 hlaftrack). And the OKW Puma will also die unless you have very careful micro.
- Move this unit to Captain's t2. Here it has a more fitting role of a potent vehicle that can suppress and damage from afar. Switch it with the pack howitzer. This way, Americans have earlier access to barrage units (and clear buildings which their infantry lack at). At the moment, trying to take this thing on at 7 min in the game is challenging to say the least.
- Or severely reduce it's anti tank capabilities. The fact that it can destroy light vehicles with ease makes it a monster to try to kill. Why else does every American player get rush this thing?

Also, fix grenades please. Half the time I use the ability to doesn't even work/attempt to throw. It just glows green like someone is throwing (which they aren't) then I eventually have to move and lose the munitions.
And an attempt to help rakketen rotation and firing would be nice. It seems to get stuck on terrain and has trouble rotating to fire even at long range; it often needs those precious moments of firing to get themselves comfortable or something.

Of course discussion is always welcome.

What is Captain's T2?

I think you mean T3.

seriously? Buff grens? So you want march deployment all over again. Wow dude ....


AA halftrack needs a fuel incrase to like 80-90 fuel in my opinion.

No 80-90 fuel would be too far. I like the proposal to switch it into T3, a lot of people have been floating it around these forums and it does make sense to me. The first HT is the problem, not the subsequent ones. Delaying it into T3 means a 30 fuel effective delay on the first one, giving you more time to get a counter out before it runs rampant.

I agree. Also grenadiers should start with duo LMG42, with 5 manpower to reinforce.

No 80-90 fuel would be too far. I like the proposal to switch it into T3, a lot of people have been floating it around these forums and it does make sense to me. The first HT is the problem, not the subsequent ones. Delaying it into T3 means a 30 fuel effective delay on the first one, giving you more time to get a counter out before it runs rampant.

The further bonus is that you won't also have to face the lieutenant (who also has good early game presence) which serves to relieve the massive early game advantage Americans currently possess.



While buffing Grens is not my first option, I certainty don't feel like they are performing adequately compared to the other basic infantry of factions. Volks have the advantage of being more durable. The American rifle beats the Grens at all ranges. The Gren vs Conscript match up is alright (which is why I'd hesitate to buff Grens, just throwing it out there if Relic doesn't want to touch riflemen).
- I'd rather see American riflemen nerfed in some way.

Playing defense with MGs wouldn't be so much of a problem if 60% of the maps didn't favor allies so much and punish that play.

The further bonus is that you won't also have to face the lieutenant (who also has good early game presence) which serves to relieve the massive early game advantage Americans currently possess.



While buffing Grens is not my first option, I certainty don't feel like they are performing adequately compared to the other basic infantry of factions. Volks have the advantage of being more durable. The American rifle beats the Grens at all ranges. The Gren vs Conscript match up is alright (which is why I'd hesitate to buff Grens, just throwing it out there if Relic doesn't want to touch riflemen).
- I'd rather see American riflemen nerfed in some way.

Playing defense with MGs wouldn't be so much of a problem if 60% of the maps didn't favor allies so much and punish that play.

keep in mind that buffing conscript DPS by like 7% was all that was needed to make them equal. Previously, grens in light cover at mid range would beat conscripts at green cover. Grenadiers have the lmg 42 which scales incredibly well, conscripts get nothing. Maybe they should get that tiny little advantage in the early game for being completely useless later on?

I would prefer if rifle long range DPS was slightly nerfed.

Also, the M15 going to T2 and pack howie going to T1 would be interesting.

Agree with halftrack going T3, as an anti-blobbing tool. Nerf its anti-vehicle power a bit too.

Agree with pack howie going T2, but it needs to either get a cost reduction or a buff, because it's probably the worst arty in the game right now.

Riflemen could use a slight DPS decrease. We'll see how it works after that. Given that they are the only serious non-doctrinal infantry of the faction sans captain/LT, as well as the only US early game combat unit until 50+ gas is spent, they should be good. Just maybe not quite as good as they are. Buff their grenades in compensation, it's one of the worst ressource sink in the game.

Disagree on grenadier buffs. They come from a building with 3 other units and scale very, very well into late game with powerful veterancy and the LMG. They don't need buffs, especially since it would throw the Ostheer-Soviet matchup into chaos.

imo this game feels like an anti german simulator where you are not supposed to win as germans and it really looks like they did this on purpose.
I knew the balance would be atrocious in the new expansion because thats what reric does but i never thought it would bo so anti german.

what did Hitler do to you reric?

its unrealistic to expect any proper changes seeing how much reric hates germans and loves to suck MURIKA's dick

HolyHammers back from ze dead!


Now to the balance.
-Overall I feel your pain vindicare, especially with the grenades, but some of these recommended changes would cause the balance to asplode once again. Mostly because you forget about 4-5 patches ago when Grens would roflstomp cons all the time when they got their buff. I know it's hard to navigate with Grens with Riflemen sniping em' most of the time and con blobs running over em'(But I find mgs counter riflemen and cons well, especially riflemen considering they don't have oorah and smoke grenades require an upgrade/work only if you get em off first and micro well). If we were to change Grens we would have to change cons, penals, and riflemen too, so the playing field is even. Problem is it would require a lot of changes. And considering it's Relic, who in my personal experience likes to take the easy route with nerfs/buffs, it would just destroy the already slow but good balance changes implemented. Volks stand an okay chance against riflemen I find, better than Grens which is quite humourous. But the solution would probably be a tiny armor buff for Grens(imo, which should be tested beforehand as balanced*I'm looking at you Relic*). The AA Halftrack does need a nerf, but I'm not sure where, maybe an even lower penetration rate would suffice(For both inf and armor), or something Cruzz can recommend here.(Come to my aid Cruzz)

Yeah buff grens. That won't have a negative affected on conscripts and penals.

Yeah buff grens. That won't have a negative affected on conscripts and penals.

We can always increase penals cost by 10 and slap on them Rifle accuracy on long range.

us tech needs delays and be more expensive. the AA track should easily cost 70 fuel and . also increase the first lt/cpt cost to 500 mp.

I feel like no one is actually reading Vindicare's post...

He is mainly pressing for a nerf to riflemen early game (in contrast to a buff for grens). He even states that buffing grens would be the wrong way to go due to scaling issues versus two factions. Thus, he (and myself and I hope many others) prefers a nerf to American early game dominance of Axis factions. I personally think riflemen should get a nerf in long range fights (nerf to accuracy?) and a nerf to the halftrack in someway as Vindicare suggested.

After nearly 100 games as America, I have never felt my early game was threatened due to the potency of my rifles. I have never even built the halftrak in 1v1 (I go scout cars) and I still proceed to dominate both axis factions in early game.

Although if these changes came in, I also think that America should get a slight armor buff to their tanks for better late game.

Lastly, on VonIvan's thoughts on mg42's vs Rifles, it is really hit or miss. mg42's have several mechanical issues that make them suffer versus infantry:
1) if an infantry flanks and is not perfectly at max range and the middle of 42's arc of fire, the MG has large problems trying to target these infantry (1-2 seconds lock on at times), which allows the infantry to just walk out of fire
2) Rifles are very good at sniping models, and watching your MG crew walk to the gun just to die is painful.

I have the feeling that this post was mainly caused by anger and frustration, and not because of the feel for proper balance for both sides.

Grens do have a hard time, but to say that they struggle vs Conscripts is ridiculous imo. All units need to be used correctly. Also, the Gren LMG is superb vs USF.

I feel like no one is actually reading Vindicare's post...

He is mainly pressing for a nerf to riflemen early game (in contrast to a buff for grens). He even states that buffing grens would be the wrong way to go due to scaling issues versus two factions. Thus, he (and myself and I hope many others) prefers a nerf to American early game dominance of Axis factions. I personally think riflemen should get a nerf in long range fights (nerf to accuracy?) and a nerf to the halftrack in someway as Vindicare suggested.

Although if these changes came in, I also think that America should get a slight armor buff to their tanks for better late game.

Lastly, on VonIvan's thoughts on mg42's vs Rifles, it is really hit or miss. mg42's have several mechanical issues that make them suffer versus infantry:
1) if an infantry flanks and is not perfectly at max range and the middle of 42's arc of fire, the MG has large problems trying to target these infantry (1-2 seconds lock on at times), which allows the infantry to just walk out of fire
2) Rifles are very good at sniping models, and watching your MG crew walk to the gun just to die is painful.

1-2: That's why keeping your mg back, and your inf in front help defend it from any flanks. If he flanks use your frontal inf to cover the flank and simply move the mg. I do agree though that the targeting of the MG42 is a bit meh. But once it reaches vet 2 sweet jesus it's a killin' machine.

Cmon, I hate when the Tiger's top gunner 1 shots the P47 or when a lucky bullet headshots an expensive soldier, when the M4 Sherman penetrates the Panter's front but it doesn't happen vice-versa. Having a more competitive, healthy game requires less RNG.

Ok, this is gonna be long:

- Good suggestions Von about making grens tougher +1, their cost could be 250 mp then.
- Move the WC-51 to 1 cp, it ruins OKW's early-game.
- OKW building should provide 100% resource income from the sector they are built in, non-built trucks get "Lockdown" ability to remove the income penalty. I mean if they are supply trucks they should supply something.
- Nerf Obersoldaten veterancy.
- Buff vet 0 Mg-42s traverse speed and how fast they acquire target, remove these buffs from their vett as a compensation.
- USF's Flak Truck: Reduce damage and max speed (it should be a mobile suppression platform)
- Nerf the USF's LMG (the one which is in Infantry Company)
- Give an upgrade to USF: Increase MP income by +30-50 once all buildings unlocked as USF lacks MP in late-game vs vetted german units. This upgrade should cost a lot of fuel and ammo.
- Infantry garrisoned in moving vehicles get -75% accuracy.
- Flamer upgrade for the 251 available at T2 and increase the upgrade time, + 45-75 seconds.
- Increase USF's Atg penetration.
- Refuce Panzerfusilier's veterancy, they are next to broken atm.
- Blobbed units get 1.25x increased received accuracy.
- Give Pios and CEs tank traps.
- Buff osttruppens accuracy when standing still in cover.

1-2: That's why keeping your mg back, and your inf in front help defend it from any flanks. If he flanks use your frontal inf to cover the flank and simply move the mg. I do agree though that the targeting of the MG42 is a bit meh. But once it reaches vet 2 sweet jesus it's a killin' machine.

I agree with you the tactical suggestions here. Only issue is it requires germans to micro quite well and have genius foresight of where infantry will attack from to place MG's just to hold onto points. Really, it just exaggerates the already difficult MU.

I agree with most Hunderhuns statements, one thing is that if 251 upgrade would be moved back to T2 it needs to cost more to prevent coming back to bad old times, maybe about 150-180 munitions or maybe some fuel would be better (if its possible for gun upgrade) as wehrmacht is usually muni starved.

The AA could use a penetration nerf so it doesn't hard counter vehicles at least. It would have to be enough that getting two of them doesn't invalidate the nerf.

I don't think simply moving it to T3 is a solution since it overlaps in role with the Stuart.

I would be hesitant to nerf riflemen because of scaling issues into late game. Part of that is the ridiculousness of OKW vet.