1v1, the Unbeatable Liberty & Democracy

This game is broken. A microcosm of what is going on is the map Road to Kharkov. They fixed the map by deleting a few buildings and some sandbags, leaving gaping holes on it. That pretty much sums up the game. Broken with gaping holes of unbalance.

Why do you have squads blobbed up against a suppression unit?

Rear Echelons have paper durability and do zero damage. Literally the only thing they can do is spam Volley Fire, and you know what beats that? Having 2 squads. And as infantry units start doing more and more damage as the game goes on, simply using volley fire doesn't work anymore.

One of the biggest issues I find with Volley is that it allows Rear Echelon to 1v1 any squad in the early engagements, due to permanent pinning(For those who don't know, standard weapons do suppression damage, so if Volley pins someone and then the RE keep shooting, they'll stay pinned). And that's something that, while I enjoy using immensely, needs to be looked at. Even for 20MU, a 160MP capping support squad shouldn't be able to solo a core combat infantry unit.



And tell me, where is America's next tier of infantry? The bill ends at Riflemen and a single Lieutenant squad. The US has no Paznergrenadiers, Fallschirmjager, Panzerfuliser, Obersoldaten, or any other tier-up comabt infantry. Just the Riflemen. So, yeah, I'm not going to shed a tear when people complain about America's only combat infantry squad in the game.

With that said, it is strange that the M1919 comes for 60 munitions, whereas Paratroopers get them for 120. So that needs to be fixed one way or the other by Relic.

But I have to ask, do you not know what a tank is? Fuck, the Flak Halftrack will instantly rape any American infantry in the game. You're complaining to me that an 840-1120MP and 180-240MU investment is doing effective damage to infantry? Admittedly, quite effective damage.

That doesn't "theoretically win every engagement", you just practically lose them. Rife squad engagements with any similarly equipped infantry as highly based on luck in how the damage is spread between the models. Fuck, Rifles can still lose to vetted up Sturmpios.

4 Rifle squads or more is such an easy strategy to punish, it's far too heavy on the manpower, delays all the vitally important teching the USA needs to do, and on top of that has absolutely no lategame payoff.

And 3 Rifles? They get countered by any vehicle other than the damn Kubelwagon or Scout Car. They do absolutely zero AT damage and the only way they'll hurt heavier halftracks is if you're just sitting there while they surround it and shoot it for about a minute.



The Halftrack is very potent, but it is USF's direct counter to the OKW halftrack. It's supposed to win.

And frankly the possibility of Allies still experiencing a squad wipe if they retreat the instant they see the OKW Flak HT is still pretty high. Its splash damage is fucking insane, which is one thing the USF HT does not even compare to.

Unless USF ignore Lieutenant and goes straight for Captain + AT Guns preemptively, they have absolutely nothing to handle the OKW halftrack, except for their own halftrack. It needs to be the way it is or the Lieutenant and his tech branch will never be used. 2 Volk squads with Schreks are more than capable of taking out the American HT, or at the least deterring it, though as with all infantry based AT platforms, that is not the most optimal solution.

As you said, it's a glass cannon. If you take away the DPS, it will need a durability boost. Which would be a fine trade off for me.

But if you nerf the USF HT without properly considering the consequences, you will skew the US-OKW matchup dramatically. I honestly believe that halftrack is the only thing keeping Americans competitive with OKW in the midgame. The instant response I - and all my friends, too - have when I see that OKW flak HT hit the field is "I need to get my Halftrack out NOW". My entire early game is geared towards securing that halftrack's existence as a preemptive counter to the OKW one. It's become so common that in a lot of my games the OKW builds AT before their halftrack, just to screw me up. It's very often that I just see Volks walking around with Schreks by the time I get my Lieutenant into the fight.

The metagame with USF and OKW is very much "He whole halftracks the best, wins".

Er, you realize that Rear Echelon Troops can easily suppress 3-4 squads at a time, even if they're spread out. This is what makes volley fire so broken. It gives a buff to the RET that increases their rate of fire/suppression modifier over time (also works for any equipped weapons - like Bazookas) and they're free to target any squad they want, and can even move. So yeah, with a little micro they just suppress entire armies for 20 muni... as a 160 MP squad with none of the disadvantages that a MG has. The ability is broken.

USF has Paratroopers, which are EXTREMELY strong and what I'd consider to be USF "elite" infantry. As far as other elite infantry, USF has the Liet and Capt - both of which are stronger than normal rifle squads thanks to the insane thompson that each squad comes with. Not really sure where you're going with the whole "M1919A6 costs 60 muni and Paras get them for 120." Paratroopers get 2x M1919A6 for 120 munition, the same cost that any other squad could get them for, provided you have the commander that unlocks them. Seems fair to me.

Contrary to what you seem to think, USF has tons of counters to the OKW Flak HT (which is not only significantly weaker than the USF AA HT, but is also much more of an investment for the OKW than the USF AA HT is). Bazookas are actually extremely good against it, especially considering it has a set-up and tear-down time. The M20 is a soft-counter, both because it has a Bazooka and because the OKW Flak HT has a minimum range, meaning if you can get the M20 right next to the OKW flak HT, your m20 wins easily. The USF AT gun is an extremely hard-counter, being able to get off two shots before the OKW Flak HT can pack-up and move (plus out-ranging it). Furthermore you have access to the Stuart, which just mops the floor with the OKW Flak HT and pretty much every other OKW vehicle until a Panther or Jagdpanzer. So yeah, both the Lt and Capt can counter the OKW flak HT with ease, although the Capt does it better.

Of course rifles will (and should) lose to Sturmpios (although Rifles actually do extremely well against Sturmpios if you know what you're doing). Rifles are 280 MP, Volks are 320. Makes sense to me. Not to mention that Volks have abysmally low DPS - Sturmpios are the only thing holding OKW early game together, you need them around to win almost any engagement - and you still have to hope that Rear Echelons are not around to volley fire you.

As far as your claim that 2x Schrecks will beat the USF AA HT - not against any decent player. The AA HT suppresses on the move, has no teardown time, and is extremely mobile. Trying to counter it with Schrecks will never work, it will always get away. Trying to use the raketen is essentially the same scenario. You'll never actually kill it against a good player.

I'll agree that 4 Rifles is one too many, too much bleed but Rifles scale as well, or better, than any infantry in the game except perhaps Fallshirms/Obers with their ability to equip two weapons - and the effectiveness of USF weapons (although they do need this, to a certain extent).

Anyways, the unfortunate consequence to the ridiculous power of the USF AA HT is that it makes the only viable OKW opening going for a fast Puma. Anything else will instantly lose to the AA HT, and even then the Puma has a harder time than it should killing an AA HT once the 37mm is able to fire (the penetration is a bit nuts, as well as the shots per clip). Sadly, the Puma isn't great against a Stuart and is easily countered by bazookas.

I can confirm that Rear Echo troops can suppress squads in a 360 degree radius. Don't tell me its not possible, people in this thread are also saying they have done it.

RET can also use volley fire in buildings too

ciez summed it up nicely. sounds like people defending volley fire arent quite sure how powerful it can really be.

and speaking of AA ht pen, it can deal a fair amount of damage to the front armor of panthers and tigers... thats ridiculous. the thing needs a nerf.

I suspect some people don't know that you can target a different squad once the volley fire suppresses the first one. The suppression also increases over time while the ability is active so that if you retarget a squad that's out of cover in the last 5 seconds of the ability, they are usually pinned instantly.

Volley fire is broken period.

And the flak v. flak meta is stupid and boring. I don't know why Relic ever thought it was a good idea to put nearly identical units that come out at nearly the same time in the game.

Since OKW flak comes out faster, I get a couple of zooks first if I see that building, own the OKW flak, then mine has free reign and it's GG unless he gets really lucky with a raketenwurfer. It's idiotic.

So if Soviets go T1 without guards (well, who goes T1 without guards ) or you play as OH you are fucked up right ?

Volley fire should take account cover, range and possibly a time reduction. As said before, you can pin several squads with it (hasn´t change since alpha it seems)

Er, you realize that Rear Echelon Troops can easily suppress 3-4 squads at a time, even if they're spread out. ...

+1. done it many times. either make volley fire take longer so RE has to be in cover to use it without getting obliterated. or make it so that you can only volley fire one unit.

also volley fire with BAR is just wow. it's like DShK without set up time.

in khakov map, i flooded enemy with RE, about four, build ammo cache, abuse volley fire against everything, get BAR, ....

Change the ability to get rid of the active timer and instead replace it with a small AOE effect, (the same as a grenade) then it can insta suppress any 1 (2 if blobbed together) squad(s). Make it have a timer (say 30 secs) between uses and you are good to go, ability fixed. The 20 munitions cost is fine if used like this.

Volley fire should be targeted at one squad and not potentially all squads. It currently literally is "Pay 20 munitions, make all infantry retreat"...every single engagement

Use cover.

Use cover.

seen it being effective at long range in green cover.

Unless it is a stone wall or a building cover doesn't work, because of the stupid unit at there is always one entity that is out of cover, jump out of cover, or the nut won't fit in the cover.

Use cover.

While I agree with this general sentiment it isn't always an option, especially on maps like Langres/Crossing where green cover is significantly more rare. Also it is still more than possible to suppress squads even in green cover.

Using volley fire to make bazookas shoot like an autocannon is even more proof of how the ability is (currently) very broken.

You can't use a bug to demonstrate a balance issue.

how is that a bug? volley fire applies a reload modifier. thats an intended effect

Ciez, i agree with most of your points, but not about the stuart, it's good against infantry, but not that amazing against anything else. I haven't had too many stuart vs flak HT fights, so i'll give you that one, even if i remember it not being that awesome or one sided.

However pumas deats stuarts handily afaik, unless the ability for critical completely turn things around.

Stuart has little health and armor in my experience, i've found that m20 tends to live longer thanks to smoke and maybe smaller size making it harder to hit. but both go down in 2 hits from a decent anti tank weapon.


About rear echelon, the volley does need to take in account cover more, imo it shouldn't suppress ennemies in green cover, but maybe should suppress faster than atm in negative one.

But overall i find lethality to be a significantly too high on both side, sometimes unit just evaporate in 2 secs with the player being powerless against it.

obersoldaten lmg and maybe a mass of lmgs or bar tends to liquefy units too fast, even in green cover.

Late game, rear echalon have to hide.

I'd also like to point out it's hard to get rid of a forward truck without an AA ht. zookas just take ages, at guns work fairly well but are very vulnerable and slow, so it depends on terrain.

I think the AA halftrack comes too early, but I think the fault lies with the German builds. The AT gun is short range and it takes like 4 seconds to shoot after it's set down.

The Panzershreck comes late and you can't get much of them because of the low munitions income the OKW has, which shouldn't have a low munition income. Relic still has the low income thing just because their resource truck idea didn't work. They gave the okw a little more income at the cost of removing the resource truck ability but it never occurred to them that they could just give them normal income and jack up the prizes.

The 360 degrees suppression is like the stupidest thing to add on a unit, especially the doctrine MG. It's like an MG that you can't flank. It doesn't cost anything to use, it does such high damage and infantry can't get close to them from any direction.

You can't use a bug to demonstrate a balance issue.

It isn't a bug, it's an unfortunate side effect of the way in which the modifier that Volley Fire applies to Rear Echelon Troops works.

The Stuart, when using its ability can do extremely well against Pumas, especially if backed up by the Capt or an AT gun - both of which will be around if you have a Stuart on the field.

Everyone take a look at 1v1 USA streaks. +26 +25 +18 +16 +9

Compare those stats to the German 1v1 streaks.

You simply cannot disagree with Porygon when there are facts like that.

None of the players thinking USA is fine can comment on this? This is factual information guys, so, please, do elaborate.