Panzer IV Ausf J Info

Thanks to ciez and computerheat/ipkaifung's cast for helping:

Signal relay (Reveal enemy vehicles on map): 50 muni

Combat blitz: ? muni

Critical Self Repair: Immobile 15 seconds

Armored Skirts: 80 muni

Panzer commander (increases line of sight and provides coordinated barrage): 30 muni

Coordinated barrage: 120 muni

HEAT Shells (increased penetration and weapon range for a limited period): 45 muni

Pintle MG: 50 muni










http://minus.com/mQZapkReD4nvA

Hmm... looking at those pics, shouldn't the J automatically come with armoured skirts, as it was irl? And if its the model I'm thinking of then its turret should be super slow...

indeed. the turret was slow because of the missing turret engine, but skirts should be on it instantly. Ausf. J is just a normal Pz IV Ausf. H just without the turret engine

This commander is designed to rush P4 Js and is very munitions intensive. By the time 9 CPs hit, each P4 would need 160 muni each to get physical upgrades. Then a reserve would need to be stored for the self repair and HEAT.

The coordinated barrage I saw looked pretty anemic and similar to the major's barrage.

The Special ops doctrine is also designed to rush tanks (Command panther) but it offers some gimmicks outside of that. (grenade volley is excellent).



http://minus.com/i/bePJd7bshJRr2

How effective are the PIV J's?

Psquieh was streaming at the time and he said that they are same as the regular P4s but their turret and frontal armor aren't as good.

The frontal armor is 160 compared to 180 of the Ausf G.

The funny thing is it's modeled after an Ausf. H as far as I can see:

- 4 Return Rollers per-side
- View-ports on side and turret doors
- AA Mount for MG 42 (added with upgraded)
- Giant barrel-shaped exhaust system
- Turret speed is the same as OH Panzer IV

The only things indicative of the J are in the stats, having less armour (lower metal quality in the late-war) and cheaper cost (simplified production).

^^
I think they are 2 for 180 fuel (?)@ 9 CP which compares with the C-Panther's 170 fuel @ 10 CP.

2 P4s or 1 Panther? What do you guys think.

It's 2 for 200 isn't it? I don't have it but that's what I've heard.

The funny thing is it's modeled after an Ausf. H as far as I can see:

- 4 Return Rollers per-side
- View-ports on side and turret doors
- AA Mount for MG 42 (added with upgraded)
- Giant barrel-shaped exhaust system
- Turret speed is the same as OH Panzer IV

The only things indicative of the J are in the stats, having less armour (lower metal quality in the late-war) and cheaper cost (simplified production).

Additionally, turret schurzen was standard but hull schurzen not necessarily so, although it was still often fitted. But there are plenty of reference photo's with the J model sans the skirts.

Also, am I the only one that is extremely annoyed that the J's model is slightly smaller than the WM model?

There's also quite a quality gap, WM's Panzer IV is probably the least detailed unit in the game actually.

Less armor makes absolutely no sense at all

Less armor makes absolutely no sense at all

It makes sense in that Germany was on the decline and the metals they used to make late-war tanks were much lower quality than the metals used to make their early and mid-war tanks.

It makes sense in that Germany was on the decline and the metals they used to make late-war tanks were much lower quality than the metals used to make their early and mid-war tanks.

Actually, it's not entirely true.

The German steel quality was about the same through the entire war, with no evidence that supports the late war decline in quality.

It is a fact though, that their steel and welding quality had a much greater variance than those of any other major nation in WW2, so while most likely majority of their tanks had at least good armour, there were also a lot of "bad apples" with bad quality armour.

My personal comment would also be that I'd suspect the "bad apples" German tanks were better documented in Allied/Soviet tests, since it's more interesting to write about something unexpected (like armour cracking under HE shells) than something expected (thick armour holding off a lot of shells).

Psquieh was streaming at the time and he said that they are same as the regular P4s but their turret and frontal armor aren't as good.

The frontal armor is 160 compared to 180 of the Ausf G.

Some other minor differences - their main gun shoots very slightly slower (very, very slightly), it's slightly slower (6 vs 6.3) but it's MGs are stronger (about 15% to 40%, depending on range).

It makes sense in that Germany was on the decline and the metals they used to make late-war tanks were much lower quality than the metals used to make their early and mid-war tanks.

That's a bit of a simplification. On the one hand you have changes in type of armour as face hardened armour would exhibit brittleness with the increasing employment of overmatching rounds, so rolled homogeneous armour was increasingly employed. RHA armour was less prone to manufacturing flaws than FH but compromised by lower and lower access to elements such as molybdenum. Armour "quality" is further muddied by improvements as time went on in how to "fit" it to the tank:

The Ausf G frontal hull armour was a 50mm FH (face Hardaned)with a 30mm FH initially bolted and in later production welded. It provided less protection than a single 8cm plate.

The Ausf H has a single 8cm FH plate welded that generated poor results in popping along the weld seams with non penetrating hits compromising hull protection.

late H and J had 8cm RHA (rolled homogeneous armour) that was welded and interlocked mitigating the popping. J also had thicker top turret and hull armour.

As a further confusing factor the army would accept thicker 85mm plates for the Panther's glacis. Thicker and thinner plates would be fabricated by Krupp and as the war went on army inspectorate seem to have gravitated to rejecting plates below 85mm. Perhaps to make up to the poorer quality of armour? (Panther design spec called for 8cm glacis as in the D1's at Kursk yet in captured examples in Normandy the glacis was 85mm). You'll see this impulse exhibited in the Tiger's side armour actually being 8,2cm and not 8cm.

So armour quality weakened(decrease in molybdenum)as the war went on but welding and thickness improved/increased to passively compensate.

so what do those skirts do?

Panzer IV J in action, cast: 18:00

Updated OP with new information.

It's 2 for 200 isn't it? I don't have it but that's what I've heard.

Trying to reflect the gradual decline in quality of German war materials during the latter years of the war in a company-level arcade-y real time strategy game like CoH2 where most armoured engagements occur at ranges of around 30-40 metres is so absolutely ridiculous that the massive effort of some posters here to reason it out borders on retardation.

The thing nobody has mentioned is the veterancy. I played a dude who popped 2 x Vet 2 PIVs very quickly in a 2 v 2.

GG.