Official Sturmpioneer thread

These unit's are still OP in the opening. They do better damage than Conscripts at any range. If they are going to be the new 0CP Shocktroop there should be a range that they aren't the best at.

I don't think they are OP but I don't like how early they drop on the field. You have PG's as soon as the game starts, with the added bonus that if you pick the right commander you can wall off sections of the map with uncutable razor wire.

If SP's flank a maxim its over, because the gunner will keep dying and dropping the gun. This also feels broken to me. The other player should be allowed to retreat.

I also dislike SP's because they nullify CE's unless you buy flame throwers. CE's have to either stay close to the conscripts or be ready to retreat instantly.

Finally SP's with 3 or more levels of vet are straight up stupid. They are crazy efficient and have and very capable of eating up almost any infantry unit they run across.

Final thoughts: Unit is balanced but terribly unfun to play against. These units should require an upgrade or be moved later in the tech.

These unit's are still OP in the opening. They do better damage than Conscripts at any range. If they are going to be the new 0CP Shocktroop there should be a range that they aren't the best at.

Please, stop comparing damage if you do not understand it. You cannot compare Soviet and OKW damage numbers. You cannot compare Ostheer and Soviet damage numbers. You always have to take squad sizes into consideration.

Now, let's take a look at how it really is:
57.11 57.11 48.22 29.70 21.14 14.90 9.26 4.22 Sturmpio squad
17.17 16.20 12.45 09.90 08.07 06.37 5.03 3.95 Conscript squad

That's the DPS of their whole squads. This is something you should not compare. Now let's add some factors that are important for comparison. First, the HP. 6 men mean 160 more HP (so 1.5), but also a bit harder to move into cover and a bit more DPS drop. So let's divide Sturmpio damage by 1.4 to take into consideration they need to deal more damage to have the same effect:
40.79 40.79 34.44 21.22 15.10 10.64 6.61 3.02 Sturmpio squad / 1.4
17.17 16.20 12.45 09.90 08.07 06.37 5.03 3.95 Conscript squad

Now factor in the price. More expensive squads always perform better in some way, usually DPS (only some squads have utility). 320/240 = 1.33, so let's scale up Con damage to an equal price.
40.79 40.79 34.44 21.22 15.10 10.64 6.61 3.02 Sturmpio squad / 1.4
22.84 21.54 16.55 13.17 10.73 08.48 6.69 5.25 Conscript squad * 1.33
Now you see that there are some ranges where Cons can fight Sturmpios for cost and win, but those ranges are few. This means that Sturmpios might be a bit overpowered. Not much, as Conscripts have a higher utility value, but probably 5% too strong.

Would it be good to straight away nerf Sturmpios because of that? I don't think so, I think that would be rather problematic. A nerf to Sturmpios could result in the Oberkommandos earlygame becoming too weak. It's not a major difference in performance and right now a lot of people still do not know the best engagement ranges. Only go for fights at good/equal engagement ranges. Especially vs the Oberkommando trying to stall / taking bad fights is more punishing, as they profit so much from vetting. Tweak a few other problems (Grens vs Riflemen and such) first and wait for people to become a bit more experienced, then go on to try to work on those. Right now I feel it's a bit of a kneejerk reaction.

The bovine has talked.

Please, stop comparing damage if you do not understand it. You cannot compare Soviet and OKW damage numbers. You cannot compare Ostheer and Soviet damage numbers. You always have to take squad sizes into consideration.

Now, let's take a look at how it really is:
57.11 57.11 48.22 29.70 21.14 14.90 9.26 4.22 Sturmpio squad
17.17 16.20 12.45 09.90 08.07 06.37 5.03 3.95 Conscript squad

You are accusing me of not knowing multiplication. No matter, the numbers supported my argument. In a straight up gun fight the conscripts lose at every range, period. While it is a nice thing to theory craft that the StrumPio's will be on the move this is not always the case. Wrapping price per unit around it is very weak justification of their early game performance. Forcing conscript squads off of the field while the StrumPio's cap is their return on investment. Time = resources. This whole thing is very similar back to when Pioneers were over buffed.

Excuse me while I do some more math and compare StrumPio's to all Soviet infantry to see how they stack up.

In a straight up gun fight the conscripts lose at every range, period.

You did not take into account the health of the two squads like Milka illustrated. Sturm pioneers have 320hp, conscripts have 480hp.

At max range it will take Sturm pioneers 114 seconds (480/4.22) to kill a conscript squad. Where as it will take conscripts 81 seconds (320/3.95) to kill a sturm pioneer squad.

It is only at max range where conscripts have the advantage but by the time you have 3x conscripts the OKW player will only have a sturm pio squad and a volks/kubelwagen

At max range it will take Sturm pioneers 114 seconds (480/4.22) to kill a conscript squad. Where as it will take conscripts 81 seconds (320/3.95) to kill a sturm pioneer squad.

At max range being the key word. What happens when the Sturm's close the range? I can answer that. Their superior damage makes quick work of the HP difference. Which means as the Soviet player you must fall back either as a soft retreat or a hard retreat. Strum's hold the field. Return on investment achieved.

if they are moving you can multiply that damage output on the sturm pios by 0.75. Along with a burst reduction of 0.375 reduces the damage output further but is a bit harder to illustrate. Makes the situation very very different.

As a general rule when playing OKW with Soviets I keep at least two conscript squads together at all times, if the Sturmpioneers close in on one squad, the second can stay at a distance and focus fire them down together. If they get a Kubel Wagon as well, I'll usually draw fire with one squad and use the second to try and take out the kubel wagon since that's 250MP down the toilet early game.

Combat Engineers are strictly for capping close/safe zones while Cons travel together for protection.

Let's be honest here the issue at hand is people being baddies, nothing else.

I wouldn't disregard criticism regarding Sturmpios as 'bad'. Sturmpios are a ridiculous unit that shouldn't have found its way into this game in my opinion.

And yet, sturmpios are fine.

Single rifle can beat them.
Con+CE can beat them.

Is there anything that people will not bitch about in these times?

It is just over all bad game design. Small weapons profiles need to be revisited in general to stagger the damage into different zones. There should be very view units that have the best damage at all ranges. Back to my master thread about over all Soviet faction design; Conscripts and Penals need some work.

You are accusing me of not knowing multiplication.

No. I stated you do not know how the systems work and your replies have shown this again. DPS is just one of the values, HP is similarly important.

No matter, the numbers supported my argument. In a straight up gun fight the conscripts lose at every range, period.

That's wrong. Conscripts win at 35 range. Yes, they win. DPS is not the only value that counts, amount of entities and HP is similarly important. As I've said in other threads several times, when you compare a 6 and 4 person squad, the one with 4 persons needs roughly 2.25 times the DPS per gun of the other squad just to be equal. DPS alone is a bad measurement.

While it is a nice thing to theory craft that the StrumPio's will be on the move this is not always the case.

I never stated anything about being on the move.

Wrapping price per unit around it is very weak justification of their early game performance.

Rifles win against Pios on all ranges. Nerf rifles. You always have to adjust for cost if you want to compare them.

Forcing conscript squads off of the field while the StrumPio's cap is their return on investment. Time = resources. This whole thing is very similar back to when Pioneers were over buffed.

Fight on long range (where you actually win and even more win per cost), then use oorah to move back a bit and continue fighting. If the Sturmpios fight on long range they lose. If they try to close in they take damage. Most likely you won't win the fight, but you'll heavily bleed the Sturmpios and usually they need to back off, as they won't survive a second engagement. That costs a lot of time and manpower, as more expensive units take longer to reinforce.

At max range being the key word. What happens when the Sturm's close the range? I can answer that. Their superior damage makes quick work of the HP difference. Which means as the Soviet player you must fall back either as a soft retreat or a hard retreat. Strum's hold the field. Return on investment achieved.

As I said, Oorah and move back. If you can keep a 320 MP squad occupied with a 240 MP squad you win. You might not win the fight, but you bleed your opponent (directly, as the Sturms take damage) and indirectly (as you keep a higher popcap unit busy with a lower popcap unit).

It is just over all bad game design. Small weapons profiles need to be revisited in general to stagger the damage into different zones. There should be very view units that have the best damage at all ranges. Back to my master thread about over all Soviet faction design; Conscripts and Penals need some work.

Since you still do not seem to understand it, let me try to write it once more:

Every squad has a certain amount of hitpoints. These depend on the amount of entities mostly, also some modifiers in a few cases and armor.
Every squad has a certain amount of DPS. This depends on the weapons and their amount. A few also have modifiers or special criticals.
Neither the defensive stat hitpoint, nor the offensive stat DPS alone is sufficient to judge the performance of a squad, but you need to compare both. That's why I (and others) usually try to normalize the hitpoints and then compare the stats. This gives you a comparison between units, but in most cases you want to compare the performance, so you normalize the cost as well.

Why is DPS alone not sufficient?
Squad A: 4 entities, 80 HP, no armor, 60 DPS per weapon.
Squad B: 8 entities, 80 HP, 1.5 armor, 20 DPS per weapon.

Squad A total: 320 HP, 240 DPS
Squad B total: 640 HP, 160 DPS

Squad A has 50% more DPS, but squad B has 200% more HP. On average squad B will win.

Normalizing is not perfect, but it's the closest you can get to purely theoretically compare units.

If you want to learn about stats or how to interpret and use them, feel free to message me. Yet please do not constantly post false values, as this in general just disrupts and hinders a constructive discussion.

Besides that - Never compare short / mid and long values. Those are the fixpoints for the linear interpolation, but those fix points can be at different distances.

jpg? my eyes!

I dont know what kind of numbers those are but Germans have higher damage output becayse they are firing mostly at bigger squads as ipkai and milka said countless times. With 4 man losing 1 man has a much bigger impact.

If anything CE and especially Rear echelons are bad designed. at least CE has some utility with flames and mines i generally just let my rear echelon sit in a fighting position

I completely understand the larger picture of armor and over all HP. Think big picture, etc. My issue with this is the over all game balance of having a very good T0 unit that requires a extra-ordinary amount of effort to counter effectively.

At close ranges the StrumPio's have +3X the DPS of the Conscript squad. Any HP advantage the Conscripts have is quickly eroded. The Strum pioneers are also able to better project their damage over a greater amount of range than Soviet infantry units.

Sturm Pioneers I honestly don't find to be a problem. If they did not have them, OKW, from how I play Soviets, would be in big trouble since Volks will have a hard time holding off conscripts and the Kubelwagon only lasts for so long/ relegated to scouting duty by mid game or when AT hits the field.

I don't think they are OP but I don't like how early they drop on the field. You have PG's as soon as the game starts, with the added bonus that if you pick the right commander you can wall off sections of the map with uncutable razor wire.

Razor wire is non-doctrinal

Don't forget the huge penalty of reinforce time.

I have Question
Upgrade Support package is improve Repair speed ?

quote from unit profile blog

support Package: Squad loses firepower as a mine detector replaces one of their weapons. Also improves the Repair ability and allows the cutting of wire. Allows Battlefield Mine Detection (Passive) and unlocks Wire Cutter Ability.

Yes.
3.0 normal repair speed
+1.0 with vet2 I think
+1.0 with Support Package

MilkaCow you got my respect for laying out the balancing problem so precisely and over all calmly!

I think I would not have stayed so calm.

Btw: The on the move values would be very nice to compare too since this would show why closing in Sturmpios most of the time loose.

On a side note: In my mind SturmPios are fine.

Best regards