Official Obersoldaten OP Thread

To be perfectly honest, most of the people attacking Obers are the same ones who used to defend Shocks.

It really just seems like certain players are upset that Shocks are no longer considered the most elite unit in the game despite the fact that the OKW army essence stated that the force was based around elite units.

Not that it matters, but I was absolutely angry about 1CP shocks. Indeed I whined on the forums about it! It was simply too early for such an effective unit. However the complaint here is not a timing issue. We're not mad that Obers come out when they do. We're mad that they are simply too good, period. I've never faced them with STG44s so I can't even comment on that, but standard Obers are more lethal to inf than snipers are, maybe 1 Ober is like 1.5 German snipers in terms of killing power (random estimate, not based on stats). But they can stand up to enemy units, fire on the move, and get a buff against retreating infantry. That last bit in itself is a total headscratcher, considering the design of CoH is supposed to be promoting unit preservation, and retreating is supposed to make your units more survivable, not less.

I can't even imagine how bad it must be to have an Obsersoldaten squad with MP44s that negate cover, and then also have an accuracy modifier vs retreating units. Cover and retreating are the two main mechanics that make CoH infantry combat what it is!

Vet 2/3 Riflemen with 120 munitions in Brownings are "comparable" to Obers. They will still lose to fresh Obers, but they're in the same league at least. With vet bonuses to the Obers tho, it's no contest, and your squads will start dropping like flies late game, and then more obers will come out, and then they have won the whole infantry game. Countering with tanks is a laughable notion unless you've already won the game and denied them armor, or have managed to kill all their armor / AT guns already. Even Raketenwerfers are effective at countering any US armored vehicle in the game. Maybe Soviets can do a better job at countering OKW late game since they actuially get heavies? Who knows! Shermans are not cutting the mustard even with HE shells, and you almost always need to focus your tanks on Armor killing power because if a Panther or Tiger shows up in a team game and you're not ready for it, you're fucked.

Personally, I think they're fine. They're deceptively squishy until Vet 3 and I generally only hit Vet 3 with them in a third of my games when I'm playing OKW.

When I use smoke and Shocks it's insane how fast they drop.

But enough logic.

Their durability is not really the issue, although they do have more than a typical squad. It's their insane killing power, plus the stupid retreat modifier.

See Milkas post above. 133 effective HPs per model is the highest in game. And that's before vet. How many HPs would make them non squishy? 10 more manpower is what we are talking between them and shocks. If it's such a late game required obviously overall more powerful unit then I see no reason not to make them 500 manpower or a slight nerf and keep them the same price.

As I pointed out before, I really don't see the validity in comparing Shocks and Obers. The only point I was making was the hypocrisy I'm seeing.

They are different units from different armies that have different economic values. That last point is more than enough to shut away the comparisons, but it won't.

To go into it a little further, this unit, unless replaced by a doctrinal unit, is the backbone of the OKW Army Essence. Volks are the worst starting unit in the game. Sturmpioneers do great damage at CQC, they also get murdered closing gaps unless using fog of war or cover to advance. I don't think there's anyone who can debate that OKW early game suffers the most. And there's nothing wrong with that.

There's also nothing wrong with all the other glaring gaps the army has. Because it's built that way.

Counter thought to your point. Do you think it's realistic that a 7 minute Obersoldaten squad will hit Vet 1 before any one of the 3, sometimes 5 or more, starting rifleman squads will hit Vet 2/3?

No one's debating that the obersoldaten aren't good, we're saying they need to be.

They don't need to hit Vet 1 to be devestatingly effective though; even when fresh they are probably the most potent infantry unit in the game, as potent as Vet 3 rifles with upgrades. As the game goes on the Obers, who are tough to kill even with their "counter" (i.e. Shermans) will build up vet and become nearly unstoppable. It creates the oldschool CoH thing where Axis steamrollers kicks in anytime the game goes on too long. Which was probably my least favorite part of the original.

In my opinion, USA needs to be a little weaker in the early and mid (by nerfing the OP stuff like volley/AA halftrack), but the OKW needs to be weaker in the long-run. I mean, I can't tell Relic to go back and delete supertanks from their core faction design, but at minimum the Obersoldaten need toning down in terms of sheer killing power. The retreat modifier should be deleted outright in particular.

I want the game to be competitive at all stages, I don't want OKW to have to stall for endgame, and I don't want the US faction to be dreading the prospect of their opponents surviving beyond 15-20 minutes.

Units need to be toned down. In groups of 3 they are impossible to kill. The T70 had a lot of difficulty. If you yield a KV8 you are screwed for the up coming Super Tanks of the OKW.

Units need to be toned down. In groups of 3 they are impossible to kill. The T70 had a lot of difficulty. If you yield a KV8 you are screwed for the up coming Super Tanks of the OKW.

Wow, 1200mp?! what have you been doing the whole game? Nearly everything is hard to kill in groups of three

Seriously, there's a wide array of counters available to deal with Obersoldaten.

Soviets;

-Maxim to suppress+any infantry to deal damage
-Any sort of vehicle
-Snipers
-Indirect fire
-Shocktroops but only if you manage to close the gap (hint, truesight/ smoke nades)

Even Guards can stand their ground when in a favorable position because their PTRS penetrates the Obers Armor and you might land some crits. Just make sure to retreat soon enough.

USA;

-.50 cal to suppress any inf to dish out the damage
-volleyfire (haven't tried post patch so might not work anymore)
-any sort of Vehicle except ambulance
-If you have them around and you should have them around lategame, vet3 rifles with BARs or 1919s

John Moses Browning developed some damn fine pieces, use them.


Ofc the effectiveness of counters varies strongly depending on your opponents skill, but the ones listed above are the ones I had most success with against Obersoldaten.

Just use vehicles to deal with them.
It reminds me of OH players complaining about not be able to kill KV-8 with Infantry.

Just use vehicles to deal with them.
It reminds me of OH players complaining about not be able to kill KV-8 with Infantry.

It reminds me of OH players complaining that KV8 had WAY TOO MUCH AI power which was then tone down.

I just complain that you can't kill it with AT guns because it counters those (specifically the crews), which means if you don't have a StuG III or Panzer IV or bigger, it's probably gg.

I have been using Ober lately but I seriously got to ask ( Not a good ideal hide my stupid ):

Is the MP44 upgrade worth it for Ober ?


- 90 Muni for OKW is not cheap and I also lost the MG34. ( I can have the Panzersherck for volks with those 90 muni )

- I see that this gun fire slower than the normal one carry by Panzergrenadier + Sturmpiooners.

- What scenarior should I use this gun? In map that have a lot of cover like semoisky or in open field map? I heard some people said this gun ignored cover?

Thank you.

I have been using Ober lately but I seriously got to ask ( Not a good ideal hide my stupid ):

Is the MP44 upgrade worth it for Ober ?


- 90 Muni for OKW is not cheap and I also lost the MG34. ( I can have the Panzersherck for volks with those 90 muni )

- I see that this gun fire slower than the normal one carry by Panzergrenadier + Sturmpiooners.

- What scenarior should I use this gun? In map that have a lot of cover like semoisky or in open field map? I heard some people said this gun ignored cover?

Thank you.

Yes, but if you have 2 squads, only upgrade one.

You'll have extremely poten long and short range firepower as well as excelent garrison/cover counter without the need to ever use a nade or flank.

With the recent buff to Sherman HE shell, I really enjoy facing Obersoldaten.

Good luck with your Sherman HE when OKW go for Command Panther .

With increase sight + extra movement + a Puma from early game Ober can go 2 squad together without worry anything .

To be honest, that's the way I'm playing atm.

- Get 2 Volks out.

- Build the Repair HQ with puma, increase fuel income ASAP

- Get another Sturmpiooners out.

- Wait to see what USF go for: If it's Lt, get a Puma. if it's a Capt then go straight for Flak base.

- See where's fit to build flak base ( Mostly I build in cut off point )

- Get 2 x Obers ( You should be able too if you don't get anymore unit )

- Depend if enemy bring out tank yet or not you can either choose to wait a little more for Command Panther or if it doesn't look good then get the Puma/ AT gun out ( if previously you haven't go Puma yet ).

- Turn off increase fuel income, let the income go back to normal. Start upgrade with whatever you need.

Using this tactic in 1vs1, I found myself in good place. Sure, I'm not top players but I still able to win ( check my playercard ).

It's a little hard at first cause you have to stick to cover and try not to lost any squad but later when 2 Ober + command panther go together, they can tackle almost anything.

Manpower was never my problem as OKW. I found that fuel/muni might be might problem .

Any ideal for my tactic is welcome . I'm a big nooby after all.

P/S: The disable radar and Ober upgrade I'm not really sure about it. I prefer to use the basic MG34 for Ober and use those muni for ability like sherck/flare/ target weak point.

Katiof up there said that's I should get it if I use 2 Ober but he doens't explain what exactly it does so....

They cant do anything vs vehicles/artillery, so swarm them with that.


PD: Seriously guys? Even more nerfs to OKW?

Nobody can hold the soviet whine power.

Just as a reminder - this is always averages. You can hit more or less etc.

Every single Shock entity needs 80 HP * 1.5 armor = 120 small arms damage to kill. There are 6 Shocks, so 6 * 120 = 720 damage to kill a whole squad.
Every single Obersoldat needs 80 * 1.25 armor / .75 incoming accuracy = 133.33 small arms damage to kill. There are 4 Obersoldaten, so 4 * 133.33 = 533.33 damage to kill a whole squad.

Keep in mind that some weapons have penetration values (M3A1SC, M3A1HT, M5, HMGs, ...) which kill quicker as they will pierce the armor more often.

Edit: Actually calculating the chances for a Obersoldaten StG44 squad to win against a Shock squad at close range is borderline impossible to do without certain assumptions. If you make the assumption that all entities stand equally far from each other and they always focus one entity, then the calculation gets rather simple.
Calculate the time it takes for either of them to drop an opposing entity and save how much dmg the other did till that point in time. Recalculate the damage of the squad lacking one entity and repeat (one starting at 0 the other at the dmg they already dealt) until all entities are dead.
Anyone can do that. It's simple, but it takes some time and effort.

does anyone know if less incoming accuracy give some immunity to suppression?

Yes and no.

Accuracy does not affect suppression against the squad itself, but it affects splash suppression. Basically:

For every bullet shot at the target squad it will receive the suppression value of the bullet multiplied with the cover modifier and modifier if the squad is suppressed, regardless if it hits or not.
Suppression_amount * cover_table_entry * squad_state_entry = Suppression per shot on target squad


For every bullet hitting the target squad all squads in an area around it will suppress all all squads in an area around it depending on the cover modifier of the targeted squad (not the ones nearby!), the state modifier (pinned/suppressed) of the targeted squad the splash modifier.
Suppression_amount * cover_table_entry * nearby_suppression_multiplier * squad_state_entry = Suppression per hit on target squad for all squads in a nearby_suppression_radius area around the squad.

Keep the "targeted" and "hit" in mind. Accuracy matters for splash suppression and both splash and target suppression depend on the cover and state of the target squad.

Complicated? A bit
Now look at what that means:

If you are shooting at a pinned/suppressed squad, others in the area will receive lower suppression!
If you have two squads as targets, one in the open, one in green cover and you shoot at the one in the open, both will quickly get suppressed. If you shoot at the one in cover, none will get suppressed.
If you fire at a house, nearby units will not receive noticeable suppression.
And now comes the really trick part where knowledge shines.
If you fire at an Oberkommando truck or a tank, it will deal no damage, but massively suppress all squads around it since usually cover, state and accuracy are all < 1. For a tank as target they are all 1, meaning you have a huge splash suppression! ;p

Milka...your knowledge of mechanics...makes me ill....

Yes and no.

Accuracy does not affect suppression against the squad itself, but it affects splash suppression. Basically:

For every bullet shot at the target squad it will receive the suppression value of the bullet multiplied with the cover modifier and modifier if the squad is suppressed, regardless if it hits or not.
Suppression_amount * cover_table_entry * squad_state_entry = Suppression per shot on target squad


For every bullet hitting the target squad all squads in an area around it will suppress all all squads in an area around it depending on the cover modifier of the targeted squad (not the ones nearby!), the state modifier (pinned/suppressed) of the targeted squad the splash modifier.
Suppression_amount * cover_table_entry * nearby_suppression_multiplier * squad_state_entry = Suppression per hit on target squad for all squads in a nearby_suppression_radius area around the squad.

Keep the "targeted" and "hit" in mind. Accuracy matters for splash suppression and both splash and target suppression depend on the cover and state of the target squad.

Complicated? A bit
Now look at what that means:

If you are shooting at a pinned/suppressed squad, others in the area will receive lower suppression!
If you have two squads as targets, one in the open, one in green cover and you shoot at the one in the open, both will quickly get suppressed. If you shoot at the one in cover, none will get suppressed.
If you fire at a house, nearby units will not receive noticeable suppression.
And now comes the really trick part where knowledge shines.
If you fire at an Oberkommando truck or a tank, it will deal no damage, but massively suppress all squads around it since usually cover, state and accuracy are all < 1. For a tank as target they are all 1, meaning you have a huge splash suppression! ;p

does that mean even maxim firing at tanks will suppress all nearby enemy units with great effectiveness? because even when there are like 3 units intertwined together charging my maxim, I still have to target them one by one after another to suppress all of them.

p.s. so according to your post, i guess the feeling i get about how it takes longer to suppress obersoldaten is just my flawed perception then.

Maxim has a rather weak splash suppression (small radius, low splash modifier). That's why it's usually better to target squads individually.
This is one of the major differences between the MG42 and the Maxim, as the MG42 has incremental accuracy (higher accuracy depending on the amount of entities close to the target) and a really good splash damage modifiers and radius.

Let's just have numbers speak:
MG42:
| | | nearby_suppression_multiplier: 0.8f;
| | | nearby_suppression_radius: 11.5f;

Maxim:
| | | nearby_suppression_multiplier: 0.4f;
| | | nearby_suppression_radius: 10f;

MG34:
| | | nearby_suppression_multiplier: 0.8f;
| | | nearby_suppression_radius: 12f;

.50 cal:
| | | nearby_suppression_multiplier: 0.8f;
| | | nearby_suppression_radius: 10f;

Keep in mind that these are just modifiers for the splash suppression.

TIL
Thx milka