One week from release and still no official okw gameplay

Come on, this community is immensely positive and supportive. Our criticisms are generally constructive. Let's not paint some twisted bitter picture here cause that's not even close to the case. People are pissed about this NDA and the real lack of marketing, and rightly so. We can't be awesome together if we're not allowed to be, now can we?

A decent portion of the community (especially you guys that put on tourneys and create content) are positive and supportive, but you don't have to spend very much time on these forums - or the official forums to get sick of all the complete bullshit or the pervasive negativity and trollishness that a lot of people spew.

You know like the whole "LOL U THINK DAT BCZ UR A DUMB [insert faction] FANBOI FAGGOTZ"

Would be interested to see how many times "Soviet/German fanboy" has been used on these forums.

Anyways, I agree with you about the NDA needing to go - probably should have been removed at least a week ago - if not more. And yeah Relic's marketing sucks - hopefully that's something they can work on in the future. So yeah, while your statement of us not being able to be awesome together because of NDA and other nonsense is definitely true - the fact that this is the most negative/troll infested/un-constructive community (as a whole) that I've ever been a part of is also true. Maybe Darkfall had a worse community... maybe... but doubtful. Grated, it has slowly been getting better over time, there's still just so much toxicity left.

@CieZ
That was one of the best reads I've had in a while here.

Also, I doubt that anyone is angry at relic or hates them or don't want to give them understanding(they have all the time they can get, we're as a community aren't going anywhere anyway), its just being upset at same mistakes being done over and over, thou as I've said in the past-Relic eventually gets things right and usually its the process that they love to use jackhammer on.

Hell, Noun getting on and leaving a post every two days alone would create a LOT of positive feelings.

And regarding your last post, darkfall community, while it was one big steaming pile of poo wasn't even half as toxic as certain people here.

I do miss the times of CoH1 forums, where strat discussions were spammed, not balance ones and you've used proper reps and strats to counter others argument instead of trying to type "fanboy" faster then the person you argue with does. Good times, miss that a lot.

Though I have been a lurker here for awhile, I feel that the positive/mature people here far outweigh the negative ones.

The fanboyism and the political aggressiveness stems largely from the fact that this game bases on the armies of the two most adverse and powerful factions of the early-mid 20th century, a time that is still recent enough to affect people today. Now, if we had fanboys of fictional factions like in Starcraft, then we can all laugh at those people as it is merely a game with no depth in its factions. But since this is a WW2 RTS, it is doomed to have its factions favored by those who approve of the factions politically and mentally. Its terrible, as people disagree based on their beliefs at points instead of balance and actual gameplay. Thats what makes this community so difficult to trust - people's judgement is impaired. All we can do is hold on tight and hope Relic's... (positive in this case) stubborness ignores all the critics who are not just concerned about faction balance. Granted, i dont think there are Stalinist Communists here, nor Nazi apologists, despite the names, but this is one complex community that has a hard time making up its mind and tends to bitch more than needed.

I dont blame Relic for not talking to us often - they'll recieve more than what they need, and that must be frustrating.

I hope they keep a clear mind and ignore the insensible arguments and complaints that follow the release of WFA. I just want to enjoy this game, and it annoys me that rash decisions and complaints always seem to ruin it.

You know like the whole "LOL U THINK DAT BCZ UR A DUMB [insert faction] FANBOI FAGGOTZ"

Would be interested to see how many times "Soviet/German fanboy" has been used on these forums.

RELIC FANBOI.

For real though, I am so sick of the word fanboy.

I'm FANBOI of TOP PLAYERZ. This ok?

I'm FANBOI of TOP PLAYERZ. This ok?

Only if you hate with passion everyone else.

Here is marketing for youze WW2 fanses:



Now behave! Or it's the doghouses for youze!

Fuck me, I don't think I have the words to pull this post off.

I agree with Bloodnok's post mostly but:

As for a degrading relationship with Relic, (especially considering the amazing generosity of the Relic hosting exercise in Vancouver), I would say many of the pros who felt they could take the cookies, then cut and run, have a hell of a lot to learn about loyalty, respect and commercial life. You have to take the rough with the smooth: I am certain you know that - it is a lesson you need to inpress upon the others.

THQ and Relic never asked for anything back when I dealt with them. I did my best to feed information to the community and write stuff and answer questions - that's why I was there, to hype up the game. Why should those expectations suddenly change? And I'm not a pro and I'm not a big COH1 personality. I'm just a big Relic fan. Granted I don't go around slating them on the forums, but I am highly critical - else how are they to get feedback or improve?

My loyalty to Relic has been tested to its utmost this past year, with COH2's difficulties. I can see they are struggling, that they are recovering and I think WA is a really good positive sign of how much things are improving. However from my perspective, since SEGA took over Relic its been harder to communicate and channels tend to be more closed. It's one way. It's probably because most folks I spoke to at Relic or had on Steam left. There's no longer a THQLynx or Ruined, and instead poor Noun is left to run around doing all the work himself. I wish he'd respond to me more but I know he has a job to do and to him I'm just a random fan. I didn't get an invite to the Vancouver thing, and I didn't expect one - but its not the same sort of community atmosphere as I remember it. It's the only event that's been talked about for the last year. I remember when they happened every 6 months and we'd always have information flooding from somewhere.

But I also think that, while CieZ says they have responded well to feedback, that they still have soooo much more to do and distance to go. Free to play, Pay to win... how many times does that echo around when COH2 is brought up? Relic haven't done enough on this front IMO, and still have a lot to do. There isn't much more to say on this, but I think that its still a hangover. I still feel like they want COH2 to be a DLC machine, when it should be enriched with meaningful experiences. I personally hope Premium Commanders never come back. I'd love it if they made all the current ones free and removed them all from the store. But I know that won't happen.

Do you want to know why some of us come across angry and upset? Because we care. Yes yes positivity and all that, but we aren't all glass half full people. We aren't all gods of the micro. Stuff that doesn't go as planned upset us. We don't get Relic's ear, and we get scraps from the table - poorly written media articles (calling commanders commandos - jesus christ how)

Hell the whole COH2 collectors edition stuff just stank of the DOW2: Retribution DLC gaff only a couple of years ago. God damn official forums exploded, was a nightmare to moderate. It's like Relic learned nothing (granted there's no THQ around now whom would of "learned from this"). "Believe us, we are learning" they say, and yet there it was again. That shook my faith a lot. Fool me once... etc.

I just want to close saying it's hard to see any of what you say when we're not pros and not in alphas or betas. I'm not going to claim the masses are right - some of them clearly aren't. But hey, we have to be understanding and as Ami says - how can we be a united community if there's a load of hidden stuff? If we are all treated like children due to the action of a few?

I do miss the times of CoH1 forums, where strat discussions were spammed, not balance ones and you've used proper reps and strats to counter others argument instead of trying to type "fanboy" faster then the person you argue with does. Good times, miss that a lot.

Katitof I've seen you type "L2P" as a response to balance issues more than anyone else, you're far from innocent here.

And yeah Relic's marketing sucks - hopefully that's something they can work on in the future.

How many more future do they need?
Relic is an older company they bought out CoH 1, CoH 2, the Dawn of war series..........haven t they learned anything from all this in the last 10 years? It seems not.

Relic had enough time to learn something about marketing, hyping....its time to act now but relis is:
Dream on sleeping beauty relic, dream on. WFA Game coming out in a few days and relics propaganda machine has engine damage it seems. Has somebody Panzerfausted relics propaganda machine for western front armies?Or why is it so lame?

As an 'enthusiast' (a more appropriate word) of the war (10 years experience) who has studied the war seriously, built up his own library (special interest: ground combat), seen/participated in countless WW2 debates of forums and IRL so forth, the history of WW2 is very much controversial and still unraveling.

The attraction and baggage associated with this must come with the COH franchise since they loosely base the game off history. Why I think WW2 buffs like playing WW2 games? Because there is only so much the imagination can do from reading. Sometimes, we want something else-something with more stimulation oriented excitement to complement the hobby. The WW2 knowledge then, hopefully, 'enhances' the gaming experience but this requires the game to also 'work' with the knowledge.

Many people like me who play COH2 are not that interested in gaming unless it's about WW2. Personally, I've never been interested in a game unless it's about WW2. (men of war, red orchestra/Rising storm are the only other games I've played since the first COD/blitzkrieg)

The fanboyism and the political aggressiveness stems largely from the fact that this game bases on the armies of the two most adverse and powerful factions of the early-mid 20th century, a time that is still recent enough to affect people today.

If anything, I would probably advise the admins of the site to create an off topic WW2 forum as to seclude such conversations from contaminating balance forums and elsewhere.

Many history forums do the same thing with a politics sub-forum just to separate the contemporary politics from the more serious historical discussion. It's not always easy, as both, like COH and WW2, are intertwined.

I'm FANBOI of TOP PLAYERZ. This ok?

I won't ask you about it, you don't tell about it.

They probably learned from the initial open Beta and the corresponding cancelled pre-order sales they had from it.

I certainly know I saved a good $50 from that open Beta.

Also - with the Steam Summer Sale just about to start - poor old WF is going to be buried in the background noise.

Well excellent comments here, great to read them all.
But as I said, marketing is a logical game that can grant you so much advantages. I see absolutely non from relic's side.

Katitof I've seen you type "L2P" as a response to balance issues more than anyone else, you're far from innocent here.

And I'm not saying otherwise.
But if you look at vast majority of balance threads, you'll see they are made mostly by 3v3 or 4v4 heroes of one faction complaining about stuff they didn't bothered to learn about on how to deal with.

For every 10 balance threads maybe two are actual balance concerns.

Now, back to poking Relic and sega with a stick.

5 days to release of something as big as the game release itself and not even Noun coming here with "Hey! Stuff is going great! You'll love it, here, have some random screenshot of random new unit!"

They just don't see the opportunity of coh2.org.
Maybe they see it as a bunch of fanbois that will be loyal no matter what.
Maybe they see this website and members as something that doesn't need attention because we are doing everything ourselves. Tournaments, prizes, worldbuilder tips, guides.

You don't have to tel me why they should put more time in the community, but let's say I'm a guy from relic and I ask you; Why should we give you guys more attention? You do everything from making tournaments to guides to balance discussions to streaming to ... You guys are doing a great job, but we are not going to put time and effort in a community that does everything we dream for without us doing something for them.
I mean, that's a dream relation no? It's like you are together with a girl and she does everything without you doing something back.

I don't think they see the potential of the community as we do.
We're a wet dream for developers. We should be.
They should at least give props for every staffmember that does this all without gaining anything back.

Because Kreatiir, quite obviously, time invested in making a strong site like COH2.org brings in more players. More players are more sales - more sales are more money and more potential DLC targets.

However, by not investing time or money into COH2.org (and we're talking like £500 prize money or some goodies) you alienate the community. The community has to find its own way and resents you. It's a classic PR/image problem. If you abandon a game, leave it to rot, whats to say you won't do it again? I will however point out that Relic have never done this, and are in fact still supporting Dawn of War - which makes them look fantastic vs. other devs.

Whatever, just read a book on why PR is so important and tell me Relic aren't falling short in some of those catagories. Of course that book is getting rewritten all the time...

If anything, I would probably advise the admins of the site to create an off topic WW2 forum as to seclude such conversations from contaminating balance forums and elsewhere.

Many history forums do the same thing with a politics sub-forum just to separate the contemporary politics from the more serious historical discussion. It's not always easy, as both, like COH and WW2, are intertwined.

An excellent suggestion. +10.
It would make the mods job easier, provide a place to redirect discussions which derail into historical accuracy etc (which is in the top 5 of coh2 trolling and disruption list) and give a place for the real informed history buffs among us to show their metal and the rest of us plebs to learn about history.

On the threads actual topic:

I think its completely unfair to try and blame the community.

Coh2.org is a well designed, extremely functional site and in all aspects pretty much the posterchild for how good a fansite can get. This is the coh2 hub, bar none. Official forums perform their obligatory function but cant hold a candle to this place. Moderation is mostly reasonable and uninvasive. The community here has done enormous work for promotion and love of the game. Even our best posters occassoinally err into lowering themseles to the base level of "l2p" and fanboism, but that is to be expected, entirely human and some degree of conflict is normal in every extended family.

On that note, I think the primary element of toxicity on Coh2.org, is from a degree of gangbanging by a small group of shitposters. Its not any one individual poster that is toxic, so much as it is a number of them together attacking another individual poster, and mitigating their personal responsibility of shitposting by doing it together, and creating the artificial illusion that "we are the community condemning you", when infact its just a small group of asshats who together spam up threads with a quadratic amount of crap compared to their small number and all targetted at one individual, and certainly not the topic actually at hand. Something to perhaps pay more attention to, and recognise for what it actually is.

In my opinion, the NDA discussion is secondary to Relic Marketings own inactivity and complacence regarding WF.
The community has done what it can, and Relic, to its credit, has, wisely, allowed some limited casting of its beta material in the past.

Im of the school of thought, that any and all media related to something, is "good media", whether it turns out to be negative or positive. You cant control the reaction, only try to conducively direct it. If the reaction is bad, you can only blame yourself for either a bad product, and/or for not marketing it well enough. That is the real seat of responsibility and where ultimately the buck stops. Blaming people for "not liking what I like", is not constructive and actually the worst kind of representation a product or service can get, both from the action of community and marketing itself.

You cant control the pre-release reaxtion anymore than you can the post-release gaming site reviews and metascores, some of which invariably are completely bullshit due to for example being written by asshats who only played the game for an hour or so and wrote the review in even less time, and those who have actually no interest or knowledge of the genre in the first place. This problem is mitigated somewhat, in that people will still buy the product, because they recognise that the reviewer is full of shit, and they prefer to make their own judgement upon trying it. That is where good prelaunch marketing and community involvement steps in as a conducive factor, as it creates a background against which to offset an idiot reviewer. They are made to look stupid by contrast to the quality of the marketing and the sense of goodwill the community generates in supportive cooperation with the launch. Consumers who love a product make far better, and cheaper, advertisers than most professional marketers.

Lifting NDA and allowing disclosure would have created free hype, customer awareness and attention to the release. There is no ifsandsorbuts about that. Whether negative or positive in mass aggregate, is besides the point. If you choose not to take that path, it becomes incumbent on the Marketing team to take up the slack, and with their own work, create that self-same at their own expense and time.

For me, the single and only exposure I have had to the release, has been from this site, the ingame splash screens, and a single entry on the biblical IGN PC "Games to be released soon" listing. Thats it. What little marketing that has been done, from my perspective, has only reached those who already play the game. To my perception, even the signifcant cashcow and sadly ignored expat vCoH community is only peripherally aware of this launch, even though it deals with the general theatre of war which with they are most familiar with from the franchise. This is particularly significant in the sense that a huge part of buyers are only interested in the historical setting and the campaign. Multiplayers are a minority. These guys LOVE WW2 games for the historical representation more than anything else. Awareness and attraction to potential new fans for the franchise is to my online perspective, less than for even many moderately anticipated indie 4man team productions on Steam.

No doubt, initial sales will reflect this negatively. And due to the restrictions on community involvement, it is quite predictable that initial bugs and balance problems (which are native to and unavoidable in every case), will be commented upon and reviewed commensurately more negatively, as a result of a sense of antipathy andexclusion of the community. To the tune of "Well, if you wont let us do it, then we expect you to do it better".

I will buy it. Most of the community here at coh2.org will probably buy it (and that is in large part thanks to the existance of this site and its community, which is a very significant credit to it). But as to Relics marketing directed to new potential players and also the expat vCoH community, it registers to me as the bare minimum, and will be reflected in reduced initial sales, and the NDA restrictions will compound that with post-release reviews which may possibly be very condemning (depending on how finished the product is) without any substantial community based cushioning and also possible positive and optimistic counter-reaction already having been established (for free).

TLDR: Marketing dropped the ball.
Dont try to blame the community for that, which has infact done more work to support the game they love than the Marketing team has.