Lets talk Pgrens.

I will copy my post from the other thread, but really I never saw a Thread dedicated towards Pgrens, but they where often mentioned in other posts. My general Sentinent is that they underperform for their cost, and have no clear/usefull role.


Ok, PGs are not the same now. They have another role now.

But what is that role and are they really a good choice for that role?
I can maybe see them as Counterinitiation units, killing enemys that get too close to your HMGs/Snipers. But here one simple thing outshines them: More HMGs behind the first one. In a defensive position I see no way that a Pgren squad would be more usefull then even a single HMG, and they are even cheaper.


Then we have agressive Roles left.
You could use them with a halftrack to get them into position. (But in the meta halftracks are rather used defensiv.. so. Maybe worth a try?)

You could use them to flank.
If you go after lonely units, they could get killed by cons in cover, maxims turn to fast and Snipers bleed them hard.
If you flank a big engagement, to get a maxim / Zis, it could work if the enemy DOESN'T focus them as soon as he sees them. Have fun retreating through the enemy. And riflenades are better against weaponteams anyway.

Thats how I see it so far, but please explain to me what their intended role is, and why I shouldn't just get another MG42(/gren).
(Or whatever else you think about PGrens current state).

I will copy my post from the other thread, but really I never saw a Thread dedicated towards Pgrens, but they where often mentioned in other posts. My general Sentinent is that they underperform for their cost, and have no clear/usefull role.


Ok, PGs are not the same now. They have another role now.

But what is that role and are they really a good choice for that role?
I can maybe see them as Counterinitiation units, killing enemys that get too close to your HMGs/Snipers. But here one simple thing outshines them: More HMGs behind the first one. In a defensive position I see no way that a Pgren squad would be more usefull then even a single HMG, and they are even cheaper.


Then we have agressive Roles left.
You could use them with a halftrack to get them into position. (But in the meta halftracks are rather used defensiv.. so. Maybe worth a try?)

You could use them to flank.
If you go after lonely units, they could get killed by cons in cover, maxims turn to fast and Snipers bleed them hard.
If you flank a big engagement, to get a maxim / Zis, it could work if the enemy DOESN'T focus them as soon as he sees them. Have fun retreating through the enemy. And riflenades are better against weopanteams anyway.

Thats how I see it so far, but please explain to me what their intended role is, and why I shouldn't just get another MG42(/gren).

As long as I lose 2 models from a Pzgrens squad equiped with schrecks while attacking an unsupported ZIS gun, I draw the conclusion that they have several purposes:
1. Make you waste manpower;
2. Through schreck upgrade make you believe that they actualy are good at something;
3. Make you cluessly wonder what you can use them for;
4. Make you never use them again or change faction and play soviets.

PGrens need to be changed back to how they were, given then option for a 75 munition single shrek upgrade and moved to either T3 or T4. Problem solved.

I don't know why Relic changed them, they were the only german non doctrinal closecombat unit.

Anyways, I never build more than one squad and I use them as damagedealer to support my grens.
Concerning their AT-potential, I usually prefer multiple paks over pshrecked pgrens.

Shreks are too good, make them as they were in vcoh = bad accuracy at long range.

Pgrens with 1.2 armor were spammable because shreks are so good, nerf shreks and give em back 1.2 armor

I you want to help the soviet player winning against you, build Pgrens and give them Schrecks.
Your enemy will be gratefull for his new AT-Conscripts/Shocktroops.

The old Pgrens were terminator squads that would usually rack up 50+ kills over a half-hour game. They could run up to a conscript squad and wipe them out without taking casualties themselves. It's reasonable that people think they suck now that 2 prgens no longer run through everything.

I use Pgrens as a flanking/ambush units. You should never send them directly into the enemy lines because they will just get focused down, as what happens to all close combat units. Use them on a flank where they can release their huge close-mid range DPS while only being in close range of a single enemy squad, and use cover! This will make it much harder for your enemy to focus down your pgrens.

Alternatively you can keep them with your grens if your opponent has gone for close range units like PPSH conscripts.

I you want to help the soviet player winning against you, build Pgrens and give them Schrecks.
Your enemy will be gratefull for his new AT-Conscripts/Shocktroops.

So true it hurts.

The old Pgrens were terminator squads that would usually rack up 50+ kills over a half-hour game. They could run up to a conscript squad and wipe them out without taking casualties themselves. It's reasonable that people think they suck now that 2 prgens no longer run through everything.

I use Pgrens as a flanking/ambush units. You should never send them directly into the enemy lines because they will just get focused down, as what happens to all close combat units. Use them on a flank where they can release their huge close-mid range DPS while only being in close range of a single enemy squad, and use cover! This will make it much harder for your enemy to focus down your pgrens.

Alternatively you can keep them with your grens if your opponent has gone for close range units like PPSH conscripts.

I agree that they were slightly over the top pre patch. I guess the main problem right now is, that they were given a role, other units perform better (more cost efficient) in.

And Shrecks are fine the way they are.

They are situational, if u are playing a game and low on fuel but have good ammo (like north langers) make pg for the shreks. Otherwise they are not much better than having grens unless u want to use them for flanks against support weapons

I keep holding on to the fact that pg's aren't cost effective anymore. Shocks can run up to a squad and start killing, pg's cant.
They lose 2 of the 4 units and need to retreat.
Shocks lose 2 and have 4 left.

I don't like the armor nerf, or the cost is just way too high.
I mean guys, when did you say as Soviet 'Damn they got PG's'?
I didn't say that for a long time since the new patch.

Shrecks die like flies and drop their shreck too much.
PPSH doesn't get dropped, LMG from time to time, there is no consistency in it.

No, I rather have 2 packs than spend 360 + 120ammo.

Over and out.

I keep holding on to the fact that pg's aren't cost effective anymore. Shocks can run up to a squad and start killing, pg's cant.
They lose 2 of the 4 units and need to retreat.
Shocks lose 2 and have 4 left.

I don't like the armor nerf, or the cost is just way too high.
I mean guys, when did you say as Soviet 'Damn they got PG's'?
I didn't say that for a long time since the new patch.

Shrecks die like flies and drop their shreck too much.
PPSH doesn't get dropped, LMG from time to time, there is no consistency in it.

No, I rather have 2 packs than spend 360 + 120ammo.

Over and out.

Shocks only start killing when they are in melee range. Pgrens don't need to close in that much and can beat any soviet unit from medium range.

Also weapon drops are actually very consistent. Every weapon that can not be fired on the move can be dropped. Flamers, LMGs, panzerschreks, PTRS rifles are all able to drop. Every weapon that can fire on the move can not be dropped. G43s, ppsh, mosins, STG44, Kar98, MP40 etc are all non-droppable.

Shocks only start killing when they are in melee range. Pgrens don't need to close in that much and can beat any soviet unit from medium range.

Shocks have a fast throwing / short-timed grenade that does a lot of damage, and not from melee range. Pgrens don't need are not allowed to close much or they will die like flies. And even if they don't close in, nothing can stop ppsh cons or shocks to close in and terminate them quickly. When you are in combat with them, you really should consider to keep your finger on the "T" key ready to press or you will have one squad less.

I keep holding on to the fact that pg's aren't cost effective anymore. Shocks can run up to a squad and start killing, pg's cant.

Well, if we leave out the fact that shocks are meant to do that and pgrens not.
Pgrens apparently are supposed to be cover for your grens and weapon teams, not assault infantry, for that you have AGs.

They lose 2 of the 4 units and need to retreat.
Shocks lose 2 and have 4 left.p

When shocks loose 50% of the squad they aren't exactly durable killing machines either.

I mean guys, when did you say as Soviet 'Damn they got PG's'?
I didn't say that for a long time since the new patch.

Every single game up until last patch because of how effective shrecks are?

Shrecks die like flies and drop their shreck too much.

All infantry does now. That was pretty much the point of last 2 patches.

PPSH doesn't get dropped, LMG from time to time, there is no consistency in it.

PPSH is light weapon(have FOTM) and doesn't drop.
G43 is light weapon(FOTM again) and doesn't drop.
PTRS is heavy weapon and drops.
DP is heavy weapon and drops.
LMG is heavy weapon and drops.
Shreck is heavy weapon and drops.

I see consistency here.

No, I rather have 2 packs than spend 360 + 120ammo.

Given the price of PaK, high ROF, range and penetration? that is rather self explanatory why everyone would prefer PaKs.
Shrecks are supplemental AT weapon, not main AT anymore. Shrecks are great to have them cover PaK, but if you expect them to deal with tanks on their own, then unless you massed them you're up for a rough ride.

I use Pgrens as a flanking/ambush units. You should never send them directly into the enemy lines because they will just get focused down, as what happens to all close combat units. Use them on a flank where they can release their huge close-mid range DPS while only being in close range of a single enemy squad, and use cover! This will make it much harder for your enemy to focus down your pgrens.

You are not using them they way you describe because they dont work that way.

Katitof, sometimes I really wonder what are you smoking, my friend.

Every single game up until last patch because of how effective shrecks are?

You mean the ones you can always use because they always get dropped? Imagine a game where every second unit of the Soviets has an AT-weapon. The German player can't bring even tanks (which are now easy to kill) anymore because you can always flank them whith a conscript or shock with a dropped Schreck. Then you can bring KV-8 (or whatever you like) and its GG. The Shocks/cons are good against infantry AND tanks, maybe you got a ZIS, and you can now rush the german base with you KV-8. So, tell me what the german player can do. You see, you can loose a game just by dropping enough Schrecks.

So, I just skimmed this thread. Jesus Christ. That aside:

I just play the game super-casually as Soviets 3v3 and 4v4, never use ISU152/KV8.

Double PGs with Shreks always scare me, you never know when a tank will just blow up. They have a range and accuracy that means you cannot kite them, but must accept massive damage every time they show up. The only thing that can really stop them is Maxims, but any kind of combined arms can deal with them.

PaKs are really good, but they are directional and slow, they can be circle'd. There's no way I can handle multiple PGs with tanks (except ISUs and KV8s).

Unupgraded, I find them tricky to fight against with infantry - they have a tendency to do good damage for a long while against retreating units, and I loose whole squads by underestimating that.

Kind of meh about them currently, I think they could have their armor value reverted to the Elbe patch value (1.2?). Otherwise, they are a decent unit to have in your composition that is versatile enough to get shreks later on if required, so not a bad investment per say if your going for an extended t1/t2 into call in tanks.

As a AI unit, I find them a bit map dependent, like shock troops but even more squishy they need the cover/shot blockers.

Edit: If anyone has the numbers handy, i'd be interested to know in the AI role, whether Grens with G43's or Pgrens work out more efficiently. E.g. lets say every one munition is worth 1.5 manpower, iirc it is calculated something like that by Relic.

Katitof, sometimes I really wonder what are you smoking, my friend.

Noting.
I'm drinker type.

And my last paragraph is the reason why 100% of my posts are edited.
I obviously meant PaK, not shreck(which I corrected right now).