Honest opinions about Balance - Soviet adv

The call in mechanics need to be changed, for both sides. Tech buildings are required.

Is because that i call the sherman's and double t34/85 call's in's op.

^^
shermans are too expensive and fragile to be OP.

Because teching factors into the Panther's initial cost, but you keep ignoring that.

To get a T-34/85 or a M4C, you generally buy T1 and/or T2, Molotovs, Anti-Tank Grenades. To get a Panther, you get T2, T2, and T4. In the below, I assume the Soviet has bought T1, T2, and both base upgrades.

90 + 260 = 350 (2 T-34/85)
180 + 175 = 355 (1 Panther)

While the Panther is clearly superior in the AT role, it lacks in the AI role and being outnumbered means it'll be on the defensive as soon as it hits the field.

u are comparing with call ins, which are the problem right now.

panthers should be compared to su85s or t34/76, which all of those require teching. and in that sense, panthers are justifiably priced for their strengths and ease of use.

asking panthers to be buffed is not fixing the problem at all. buff panthers and give t4 early access, soviet t3 and t4 will become non-existent with all that t4 armour rolling around and the same problem starts all over again. in that case, all commanders without call in tanks would then be made useless.

u are comparing with call ins, which are the problem right now.

panthers should be compared to su85s or t34/76, which all of those require teching. and in that sense, panthers are justifiably priced for their strengths and ease of use.

asking panthers to be buffed is not fixing the problem at all. buff panthers and give t4 early access, soviet t3 and t4 will become non-existent with all that t4 armour rolling around and the same problem starts all over again. in that case, all commanders without call in tanks would then be made useless.

Panther will be compared to call ins because soviets are more reliant on them.
Germans have 1 turreted call in tank.Soviets have 5.(not taking into acc the 2 tank destroyers isu/ele)
So obviously soviet late game armor is largely represented by call ins.While germans are heavily dependant on t4.So u can't ignore the balance between them at all.Without panther being balanced with soviet call ins..germans only have tiger left for lategame...and that is precisely the situation we are in now.

u are comparing with call ins, which are the problem right now.

panthers should be compared to su85s or t34/76, which all of those require teching. and in that sense, panthers are justifiably priced for their strengths and ease of use.

Oh look, I made a good point, so you've moved the goalposts and said "No you can't talk about that, talk about this instead."

Soviet T4 supplies Tank Destroyers and Artillery, and the T-34/76 isn't even near the same league as the Panther. The T-34/76 is a generalist medium tank, the Panzer IV is a generalist medium tank. You compare them to each other, not the Panther. The Panther is a high-end medium tank, T-34/85 and M4C are high-end medium tanks, you can compare those.

Doctrine be damned, you can get them in 4 doctrines, 3 of which are very solid and potent. Most builds will have one of these options equipped, especially since they're cheaper and more effective in the current call-in meta.

asking panthers to be buffed is not fixing the problem at all. buff panthers and give t4 early access, soviet t3 and t4 will become non-existent with all that t4 armour rolling around and the same problem starts all over again. in that case, all commanders without call in tanks would then be made useless.

I do not want them buffed, I want a cost decrease so they are more accessible. As for "all commanders without call in tanks would then be made useless", you mean like the Germans are? Panzer IV can't shoot for shit (highest scatter of any generalist medium tank), Panther is very difficult to obtain, that leaves them with StuG's and Tiger tanks.

T34/85s and Shermanns are not OP. Let's get real. If you know what are you doing and you play well, a supported Tiger can dispose of them with ease. That won't be the case anymore if, due to several arguably objective people on this forum who think the Tiger is OP, it will be nerfed. '85s are good, but thin enough to be balanced.
Shermanns are very thin. They don't stand a chance but in numbers, they can be killed quickly unless very good microed. Hell, even a schreck pzgrens unit (which is a quite shitty unit) can dispose of one shermann if they are in green cover and don't have bad luck.

T34/85s and Shermanns are not OP. Let's get real. If you know what are you doing and you play well, a supported Tiger can dispose of them with ease. That won't be the case anymore if, due to several arguably objective people on this forum who think the Tiger is OP, it will be nerfed. '85s are good, but thin enough to be balanced.
Shermanns are very thin. They don't stand a chance but in numbers, they can be killed quickly unless very good microed. Hell, even a schreck pzgrens unit (which is a quite shitty unit) can dispose of one shermann if they are in green cover and don't have bad luck.

Can't believe I'm agreeing with you haha.

The Tiger is okay to my mind. It does kill infantry effectively but, it's a tank, what else is it for?

Sorry guys but you cannot compare a panther to any call-in because no matter what doctrine you pick, you can still get a panther. You can have an elefant and a panther, the same cannot be said for the ISU and the T-34-85.

You people are comparing the Panther to call ins only because it suits you.

Oh look, I made a good point, so you've moved the goalposts and said "No you can't talk about that, talk about this instead."

Soviet T4 supplies Tank Destroyers and Artillery, and the T-34/76 isn't even near the same league as the Panther. The T-34/76 is a generalist medium tank, the Panzer IV is a generalist medium tank. You compare them to each other, not the Panther. The Panther is a high-end medium tank, T-34/85 and M4C are high-end medium tanks, you can compare those.

Doctrine be damned, you can get them in 4 doctrines, 3 of which are very solid and potent. Most builds will have one of these options equipped, especially since they're cheaper and more effective in the current call-in meta.



I do not want them buffed, I want a cost decrease so they are more accessible. As for "all commanders without call in tanks would then be made useless", you mean like the Germans are? Panzer IV can't shoot for shit (highest scatter of any generalist medium tank), Panther is very difficult to obtain, that leaves them with StuG's and Tiger tanks.

you missed the point entirely. my post was, fix call ins, not buff panthers. making them cheaper, directly or indirectly is a buff. also, lets not word play, this isnt politics. keep it simple. a cost decrease is definitely classed as a 'buff'.

that is why u compare with 'teched' units. panther is a class of its own with performance reflecting it, therefore the premium cost. but panther also requires teching. problem now is, t34/85 and M4C are also call ins and dont require teching, making them so much more cost effective than regular units. if you were to buff panthers on the level of M4C and t34/85's accessibility, the cost reduction will have be pretty significant in order to bring the panther out in time for them.

if u want to keep tackling the SYMPTOMS of the problem, so be it, then you will never be able to fix the problem itself. panthers are good as it is.

reason for their current under performance is because call ins are much cheaper, more cost effective and in some cases, come earlier. its much more effective to hold ground with t2/t3 with paks or p4, depending on ur preference, then get tigers. probably gonna come out roughly the same time as panther and with even more performance to boot, not sure why people are even saving up for panthers really.

you missed the point entirely. my post was, fix call ins, not buff panthers. making them cheaper, directly or indirectly is a buff. also, lets not word play, this isnt politics. keep it simple. a cost decrease is definitely classed as a 'buff'.

that is why u compare with 'teched' units. panther is a class of its own with performance reflecting it, therefore the premium cost. but panther also requires teching. problem now is, t34/85 and M4C are also call ins and dont require teching, making them so much more cost effective than regular units. if you were to buff panthers on the level of M4C and t34/85's accessibility, the cost reduction will have be pretty significant in order to bring the panther out in time for them.

if u want to keep tackling the SYMPTOMS of the problem, so be it, then you will never be able to fix the problem itself. panthers are good as it is.

reason for their current under performance is because call ins are much cheaper, more cost effective and in some cases, come earlier. its much more effective to hold ground with t2/t3 with paks or p4, depending on ur preference, then get tigers. probably gonna come out roughly the same time as panther and with even more performance to boot, not sure why people are even saving up for panthers really.

Panther has same health as ONE t-34/85 ,LESS DPS than ONE t-34/85,and has much less AI,its advantage being in mainly armor..penetration value ends up being over the top as its previous value was already sufficient to penetrate enemy tanks.Now when on top of this it costs 405 fuel to get a panther assuming t2-t4.

Now soviet player can get TWO 85s for quite a bit less than that price...so yeah the teching fix better be good if u want panther to be viable coz its a niche unit.Same health as t-34/85 maybe accepted but if its DPS is going to be lower than a single 85 then it really can't cost this much...given that its useless vs infantry.

Now lets examine ur point...is the panther really 'in a class of its own' even without the teching price?Is it worth its unit price in itself?

490 MP and 175 fuel.
Now for dual call-in 1 t-85 costs 360 mp and 130 fuel.For single call in 380 mp and 140 fuel.

So i pay even ignoring teching costs - 130 MP plus 45 fuel more for a tank....that has incomparably lower value as an AI platform,SAME health,LOWER DPS,more or less same speed,and only much greater armor,and better penetration.How is this justified?And how cost wise does it make the panther a 'premium' unit 'in a class of its own'?

What are panzer 4 stats?Anybody?

One more than a Panzer III, one less than a Panzer V

Personally I look forward to when we go to the Panzer XI

Panther will be compared to call ins because soviets are more reliant on them.
Germans have 1 turreted call in tank.Soviets have 5.(not taking into acc the 2 tank destroyers isu/ele)
So obviously soviet late game armor is largely represented by call ins.While germans are heavily dependant on t4.So u can't ignore the balance between them at all.Without panther being balanced with soviet call ins..germans only have tiger left for lategame...and that is precisely the situation we are in now.

Uhm Soviet have 5 call-ins: T-34/85, M4C, IS-2, KV-1, KV-8, of 5 KV-1 is useless and IS-2 is not really cost-effective so that leaves only 3 that is usually call in and remember that most of the call-ins are mutually exclusive. For Ostheer, we have Tiger, Puma, PzIV commande, due to the nature of Ostheer, call ins are supplement to your army, not replacing them like Soviet so Ostheer is more flexible when it comes to commander choice. For Soviet, it is simply: use call ins or lose, for Ostheer you actually have a choice so call-ins balance is pretty much screwed for both factions. Soviet have to rely on call in too much while Ost call ins are too good that normal tanks are gutted.

Panther has same health as ONE t-34/85 ,LESS DPS than ONE t-34/85

You keep preaching this like some kind of mantra.

What you are forgetting to add is Panther has twice the penetration, 10 more range and the DPS difference is 0.4 DPS, not even half of ONE dps.

the thing i dont get is why the double call t34/85 is available at 9 cp altough its power/cost is compareable to the tiger/is2 call in. if they came at the same cp i think it might be a tad "fairer". imo high impact/cost call ins should be availabe at roughly the same time

that would only leave the sherman call in to be quite early, which imo is fine

the thing i dont get is why the double call t34/85 is available at 9 cp altough its power/cost is compareable to the tiger/is2 call in. if they came at the same cp i think it might be a tad "fairer". imo high impact/cost call ins should be availabe at roughly the same time

....that too

Bullshit, go double PAK and Gren Spam -> profit.

the thing i dont get is why the double call t34/85 is available at 9 cp altough its power/cost is compareable to the tiger/is2 call in. if they came at the same cp i think it might be a tad "fairer". imo high impact/cost call ins should be availabe at roughly the same time

that would only leave the sherman call in to be quite early, which imo is fine

Cuz T-34/85 can be killed by faust + Pak while the same thing can not be said for Tiger vs At nade + Zis => T-34/85 comes first, Tiger later. And nobody uses IS-2 these days.

You keep preaching this like some kind of mantra.

What you are forgetting to add is Panther has twice the penetration, 10 more range and the DPS difference is 0.4 DPS, not even half of ONE dps.

Do soviet tanks have such great armor that makes the penetration much useful?
Does 10 range matter with the speed of the 85?Show me ONE video of panther kiting 85s or shermans.
The fact that it has less DPS than a tank that costs 110 MP and 45 fuel less is just sickening..even leaving aside the massive tech costs that require 405 fuel to get a panther.

Do soviet tanks have such great armor that makes the penetration much useful?
Does 10 range matter with the speed of the 85?Show me ONE video of panther kiting 85s or shermans.
The fact that it has less DPS than a tank that costs 110 MP and 45 fuel less is just sickening..even leaving aside the massive tech costs that require 405 fuel to get a panther.

Could I show you one with it kiting Shermans? Would that work? Or beating two Shermans at once? Let me see if it hasnt patched out.

Edit:

Nevermind cant find it anymore. Unless someone can show me how to search for replays by a user name because i cant

Uhm Soviet have 5 call-ins: T-34/85, M4C, IS-2, KV-1, KV-8, of 5 KV-1 is useless and IS-2 is not really cost-effective so that leaves only 3 that is usually call in and remember that most of the call-ins are mutually exclusive. For Ostheer, we have Tiger, Puma, PzIV commande, due to the nature of Ostheer, call ins are supplement to your army, not replacing them like Soviet so Ostheer is more flexible when it comes to commander choice. For Soviet, it is simply: use call ins or lose, for Ostheer you actually have a choice so call-ins balance is pretty much screwed for both factions. Soviet have to rely on call in too much while Ost call ins are too good that normal tanks are gutted.

When i meant tank i meant tanks that can do anti armor duty as well....not support vehicles.Ones u can use as ur frontline armoured unit.

Thats t-34/85,M4C sherman,kv-2,is-2,kv-1.
Among these only kv-1 is useless,kv-2 is not as useful as the others.
Is-2 is hardly useless ,can beat every ostheer tank other than tiger and with coming buff even that possibly.

As for ostheer only option is tiger.Puma is not a tank and not a serious lategame option.

''due to the nature of Ostheer, call ins are supplement to your army, not replacing them like Soviet so Ostheer is more flexible when it comes to commander choice''

Well thats no longer the case.There is no real ostheer stock armor to supplement...pz 4 has drunk gunner and panther is inaccesible.So right now ostheer just as dependant on call ins.If only panther was usable pricewise then this point wold be valid.