ISU-152

Why would you try to attack ISU-152 with infantry and Paks is beyond my imagination.

Because tanks arent free!!! Not a very vivid imagination.

The most direct way to take down ISU's has always been fix and flank.

Triangulate the ISU and its support.

Fix them by attacking them with several MP based units.

Flank ISU with armor and take it out.

Overall, even in the best of days you will usually take infantry losses.

Or could add a mechanic similar to marder III or KV2 where it would reload much slower unless 'sited'

Would fit its 'mobile arty' role, and make it much more vulnerable to flanking. Atm it can reverse kite like an old SU85.

But maybe that's too drastic changes. So a reload increase would be easier.

I really like this idea, this could also be applied to the Elefant. Th ISU-152 is a freaking nuke launcher right now

Increasing its reload does absolutely nothing to address the core issue which is its capacity to 1shot squads. It bandaids it by making the unit worse in general.

Excuse me,
but did anyone try Luftwaffe Support commander?
Recon plane + nuke bomb
Has anyone noticed that a bomb doesn't even have smoke prior attack???
You will be lucky if you here something like "They are attacking us from the air!!!!"
Instant kill to ISU-152

Man, finding it quite frustrating now that every 2v2 we play seems to be ISU vs. Elephant battle. While the rest of the game is multidimensional and multiple strats are viable, if the enemy has Elephant/ISU you have to have Elephant/ISU yourself.

[snip]

P.S. Oddly, it's not just the units you need but the doctrines themselves. ISU comes with Guards (for button) + bomb drop and Elephant comes with recon + stuka. These doctrines need some rework as well as the units...

The two doctrines with 152s feel all but indistunguishable anyway.

The big choice is do I want Guards or Shocks, otherwise you get a bomb strike and the 1SU-152

Otherwise it is Con Repair and Armoured Vehicle Detection v ATG Camo and Mark Target.


IS2s are spread over two (Shock Rifle and Armoued Assault) that are otherwise totally different

Jaeger Armour and Fortified Armour share recon, but otherwise feel different and Tigers show up in 4


I don't think though that Commanders have ever been changed except to have CP values changed - whats in them has never been changed?


As an aside:

Is no one fighting these things with artillery, which would be another expected counter?

Fielding and protecting an ISU requires your army and game plan to evolve around it. Similar situation with an Elefant.

Taking out these vehicles requires just as much planning and execution. They are slow and expensive.

This.

I found the unerfed Tiger Ace to be easier to deal with than elephants because to be used that had to come you and you could strip away it's supporting units if it had any.

Units with extreme range and limited traverse are going to be a PITA to deal with if supported and easy meat if not.


I'd be interested to find out how much of this is "I hate units that squad wipe and I am now seeing more of a unit that does" and how much is genuine OP.

However we are getting on for a patch and the opinion is still there, so there is probably something in it.



My suggestions:

Reduce AT damage, but increase potential for crew shock

Reduce damage versus turretless vehicles (this thing kills tanks by knocking the turret off with blast) so STUGs and Elephants should be less vulnerable


If there is a fix to squad wipes the AI should fix itself

Excuse me,
but did anyone try Luftwaffe Support commander?
Recon plane + nuke bomb
Has anyone noticed that a bomb doesn't even have smoke prior attack???
You will be lucky if you here something like "They are attacking us from the air!!!!"
Instant kill to ISU-152

Not sure if serious...or trolling.

This is not possible.

I am starting to feel pretty sick from all the bias in this topic.
You wan't to change ISU-152 ability to shoot everything from extreme range? I am fine with that as long as YOU WOULD change Elephant in similar way.


Both factions got similar unit. Soviets one got better AI due to its weapon model and the way relic decided to implement HE shells of Soviet tanks in this game in return German Elephant can 2 shoot majority of Soviet tanks with 100% accuracy all ranges and it doesn't even need spotter thanks to scope thing. Saying one unit is completely fine and other is not is a bit unfair isn't? Especially that it's way easier for a German player to counter ISU-152 than it is for a Soviet player to counter Elephant.


As I said. You want change ISU-152 change Elephant accordingly especially that if you keep your infantry on the move ISU-152 will have hard time to hit and definately won't one shoot anything unless you are blobing your army. In that case you deserve to have your army wiped out with single shoot. Maybe that will teach you.

Got a link to this thread!!

Maybe this has been mentioned already, but if not then let me give you something else to think about.

Anyone else stop to think that maybe the recon run is the OP ability causing all the fuss?

Neither unit in this argument can do a whole hell of a lot without sight on enemy targets. Either one can scarcely fire a single shot before being overtaken when they rely on their own sight range or the limited sight range of supporting infantry, etc.

In games where I end up losing a ton of shit to these units, there is always one thing in common I notice: That annoying fucking plane doing constant circles around the field!!!! It's cheap, it's long lasting and has a short cooldown time. Let's nerf that mother******! (seriously).

The recon runs gives a minute or so of sight range in a huge area over far away places for mere pennies. It grants long range units like the ISU/elefant power to fire 5-6 shots without fear of retaliation(since it can see you, but you can't see it). The plane has a cooldown time that is almost reset the moment it leaves the field. In short, its a heart breaker... especially for people like me who never choose docs with the ISU/ele/arty gun, so even if I have recon run I am limited when it comes to how much pain I can dish out with it.

Shooting down planes is annoying as hell too. Should I really have to build 2-3 ostwinds(or Quad equipped M5s) I wouldn't otherwise have just for a chance to RNG a plane down before it allows an ISU to do serious damage or force a retreat? (The answer IMO is no =)) I understand that some planes are carrying bombs(costly) and should be hard to shoot down, but the recon plane IMO should have these changes:

Either:
A) Increase cost
-or-
B) Increase cooldown

and Either:
A)reduce active time
-or-
B)make it waaaay easier to shoot down(just the recon plane, leave others alone).

Or they could make recon go back to the way it was in CoH1... one quick pass in a straight line!

My 2 cents... Death to the f**kin' recon plane.

"I am starting to get sick from all the bias," says the guy with a grand total of ONE German 1v1 game to his name, and more than double the Soviet 2v2s played than anything else.

Deal with the arguments on the table or go away. This thread is not about the Elefant or anything other than the ISU. And don't complain about bias if you yourself have a clear bias.

I am starting to feel pretty sick from all the bias in this topic.
You wan't to change ISU-152 ability to shoot everything from extreme range? I am fine with that as long as YOU WOULD change Elephant in similar way.


Both factions got similar unit. Soviets one got better AI due to its weapon model and the way relic decided to implement HE shells of Soviet tanks in this game in return German Elephant can 2 shoot majority of Soviet tanks with 100% accuracy all ranges and it doesn't even need spotter thanks to scope thing. Saying one unit is completely fine and other is not is a bit unfair isn't? Especially that it's way easier for a German player to counter ISU-152 than it is for a Soviet player to counter Elephant.


As I said. You want change ISU-152 change Elephant accordingly especially that if you keep your infantry on the move ISU-152 will have hard time to hit and definately won't one shoot anything unless you are blobing your army. In that case you deserve to have your army wiped out with single shoot. Maybe that will teach you.

Why pretend you arent biased. Just calling everyone else biased doesn't hide the fact that you are. Even if you are or they or I am, who the F cares . Only you and the 2 or 3 other posters who must be the greatest german players in the world, able to defeat 2 is2s with one stug.....

An ISu can one shot an entire army 10secs at a time, from across the map equates to Elefants being able to shoot tanks In 3 -6 shots is the same? Really?

Unless you are some super alien genius, you cant keep your entire army on the move constantly. Vs a unit that just sits there and shoots everything with no player interaction. How would it be physically possible to move your entire army with some kind of point. Not to mention Infantry cannot out move tank shells. Infantry dont dodge tank shells. Tanks miss or they hit.

Make the AoE smaller and make sqauds space out more

You wan't to change ISU-152 ability to shoot everything from extreme range? I am fine with that as long as YOU WOULD change Elephant in similar way.

This exactly what needs to happen. Both of these units have far too much impact on the game right now in 2v2+.

I am starting to feel pretty sick from all the bias in this topic.
German Elephant can 2 shoot majority of Soviet tanks with 100% accuracy all ranges and it doesn't even need spotter thanks to scope thing. Saying one unit is completely fine and other is not is a bit unfair isn't? Especially that it's way easier for a German player to counter ISU-152 than it is for a Soviet player to counter Elephant.

Maybe t-70 and t-34/76 die in two shots. definitely not 100% accuracy and penetration with the Elephant.

Make the AoE smaller and make sqauds space out more

What about Pak 43 spam, especially right behind an IS-2 as a counter

...You wan't to change ISU-152 ability to shoot everything from extreme range? I am fine with that as long as YOU WOULD change Elephant in similar way...

+1.

it is so ridiculous to keep moving your camera to and fro from elephant/isu to your units that are getting sniped from across the map.

i know elephant is in the field not because i can see it, but because of its uber damage vs. tanks.
i know isu-152 is in the field not because i can see it, but because i thought they had artillery but the barrage is constant.

can it be like 70 range? it's still a pretty long range.

Deal with the arguments on the table or go away. This thread is not about the Elefant or anything other than the ISU. And don't complain about bias if you yourself have a clear bias.

I don't recall you setting the rules for this thread.

If the elephant is not OP but the ISU 152 is than comparison of the two is valid as the two are the most similar and the elephant sets a benchmark

I don't recall you setting the rules for this thread.

If the elephant is not OP but the ISU 152 is than comparison of the two is valid as the two are the most similar and the elephant sets a benchmark

none of this has to do with anyone's player card, how biased one is or isn't, showmatches or how many quote on quote "pro" (celebrity) players agree with someone this thread has to do with the ISU 152.

"I am starting to get sick from all the bias," says the guy with a grand total of ONE German 1v1 game to his name, and more than double the Soviet 2v2s played than anything else.

Deal with the arguments on the table or go away. This thread is not about the Elefant or anything other than the ISU. And don't complain about bias if you yourself have a clear bias.

You can deny for how long you want but the truth is that Elephant was broken long before ISU was. What's more Soviets didn't have anything that would actually counter it except for heavy doctrinal call ins like IS-2. T-34/76 was pea shooter at that time and even if you managed to overcome all the support you could shoot at it all day long without any effect. Ram didn't work because you were able to retreat Elephant to safety or came back with help in the mean time T-34 was still shooting and shooting. Counter provided by Relic - Arty - would work, problem was that the same doctrine got heavy counter to howitzers. Stuka bomb plane. This dragged on for months while Germans were saying that Elephant is fine, learn to play and all that. I forgot to mention that Elephant can be equipped with an upgrade that will increase its line of sight drastically (commander).
ISU at that time was very situational. It was good against infantry but meh against heavy tanks + was way overpriced.
Now since it got decent AT and its AI is a side effect of increased lethality of all tanks + its gun mechanics (HE round). It's not even that outstanding if you compare it to other heavy tanks like Tiger, Brumbar and IS-2. Blobers got punished in this patch though. I bet they are these who cry the most.


As I said if you want to nerf ISU-152, be my guest, but tone down Elephant as well, otherwise is not fair and it will give one of the faction unfair advantage, especially that Elephant is a HARD COUNTER to ISU-152. You put these units together and Elephant will always win unless you are complete noob and don't know what to do. It's not like Germans don't have ways of dealing with ISU-152. IT IS EASIER TO KILL ISU-152 FOR GERMANS THAN IT IS TO KILL ELEPHANT FOR SOVIETS. It's not my fault that majority of Germans don't know how to use tanks because they were relying on broken abilities and OP tanks before. You know which ones I am talking about.

And yes, both Elephant and ISU-152 should be discussed together as they are similarly behaving tanks in CoH2. Both are super late, long range, heavy punchers. If you nerf one you will have to adjust another otherwise is unfair.