Elite Troops

So reread your own post that I quoted until you do.

And if you still are unable to do it, multiple weak units are not comparable to single extremely potent one.

I still don't get what the osstrupen have to do with all this...

My point is that the Soviet industry is the Soviets equivalent to the German Elite troops.
When I see someone using "Soviet industry", I get as nervous as when a soviet player sees the Elite troops doctrine.

Edit* I never mentioned that either or is unbalanced...I don't think they are to begin with.

How are people still complaining about Soviet Industry? We are talking 1v1 right?

Even in the best cases, it usually turns out to be the best way to throw a game.

Insta-vet worked in vCoH.

I agree it should cost more, and not apply to tanks. I think forty fuel to Vet 3 an infantry squad, for example, makes it a careful early game decision rather than a no-brainer.

The "Elite Troops" ability should call in a unit rather than vet things up.

The TA is also a hard counter to the IS-2 and still requiring no fuel to call in is bull

Sorry dude, I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

Please don't feed the trolls.

Elite does not fit well into COH2, and should never have been released.

Commander might be overpowered, not sure. never use it personally but enjoy playing against it. I don't see how this commander is poorly designed or goes against the fundamental essence of COH, especially since its taking a card from VCOH in terms of bought vet, which didn't seem to sully that game's position as the COH gold standard.

I think the idea here is good, is doctrine specific, and is a solid trade-off. Not sure why the ability shouldn't be available for vehicles. If its too good when used on vehicles, its price should be upped.

I don't see how this commander is poorly designed or goes against the fundamental essence of COH, especially since its taking a card from VCOH in terms of bought vet, which didn't seem to sully that game's position as the COH gold standard.

Wehr veterency in vCoH was not nearly as powerful as Ostheer vet in CoH2, especially once you factor in appropriate counters like snipers and flames doing bonus damage/accuracy against elite armor. They also didn't have things like G43 or LMG42 which directly benefit from the improved vet.

It was also generally more expensive because while it impacted an entire type of unit, the cost of building the KKC, the time to research it, and the high cost (300mp / 50 fuel iirc for vet2) meant that it was really a big investment. I couldn't just vet this ONE grenadier to vet2 and then save up to vet my panzer4 also. I had to be willing to sink a lot of time and resources into going infantry OR tank vet, not both.

Basically the Wehrmacht were designed with purchase vet built into their core army. The Ostheer isn't. The vCoH equivalent would be if one American doctrine could allow you to purchase vet for riflemen - having a vet2 or vet3 rifle out on the field in the first 5 minutes would shatter the balance because they're not designed to be able to do that but instead have to earn it.

Commander might be overpowered, not sure. never use it personally but enjoy playing against it. I don't see how this commander is poorly designed or goes against the fundamental essence of COH, especially since its taking a card from VCOH in terms of bought vet, which didn't seem to sully that game's position as the COH gold standard.

I think the idea here is good, is doctrine specific, and is a solid trade-off. Not sure why the ability shouldn't be available for vehicles. If its too good when used on vehicles, its price should be upped.

Read Shazz for more information, but if you think buying vet in COH2 is anything like vet in COH1 I recommend you play COH1 again.

I will tell you a vet 3 mortar at ~2 min mark is a fundamental breaking of the game.

Read Shazz for more information, but if you think buying vet in COH2 is anything like vet in COH1 I recommend you play COH1 again.

I will tell you a vet 3 mortar at ~2 min mark is a fundamental breaking of the game.

well there was a reason they called vetted grens terminators. Those bastards just would not die, and wehr veterancy had the added bonus not seen in coh2 of giving the bought vet to every unit that will ever be built past that point, as well as all units already built, and of course that included infantry that spawned from bunkers. vetted pios were definitely a thing for a while on their own because of how powerful it was.

That said, I didn't argue that the current state of this doctrine was balanced, just that I like the design of it. The cost for value could be adjusted if needed.

Best solution for elite troops: Make Tiger Ace 2000 mp and vet cause a mp or fuel penalty on your resources considering you're able to get elite troops/vehicles out of thin air and quickly.

Maybe requisition the Tiger Ace, wait 4 months for retrofit and transport from Africa to the Eastern Front, then you get a properly OP Tiger Ace.

Honestly, Elite troops is the biggest load of crap I've seen in a while. If the things it brought were divvied out, so that the TA would be in one doc and vet in another, okay, that'd be fine, but honestly, it's rubbish. Every game I've seen has had G43 vet 2 grens spouting out of no where. It's nonsense, it ruins the game for Soviets and just compounds their inferior infantry and inferior armour problems.

The Tiger Ace itself is a huge pain in the ass to deal with in a 1v1 considering that you can field other tanks before getting this monster of a tank; You don't need map control to get it and it'll always be something you can fall back on when the going gets tough.

Whether it's OP or not is a completely different question though. It does considerably reduce your ability to field other units once you have it and in essence it's just a glorified Tiger; It's great to have to make a come back (Because you're not getting any resources from territory anyway) but once you've taken a fair bit of the field back, your inability to profit off your land gains begins to hurt you a lot more than it does the enemy.

I personally don't mind going up against the unit and generally - if a player skills me with it - it's usually because he's a better player than me. I'm not really convinced the Tiger Ace is OP but it is an extremely powerful unit.

Everything else in the doctrine is fairly standard shit though. Troops training is more of a gimmick now that it got nerfed - Spending fuel on veterancy puts you back a long way unless you've got considerably more map control. The strength of G43s and Smoke canisters isn't really something specific to Elite Troops and stun grenades are also pretty gimmicky.

As discussed I believe this commander is still OP and compounds many existing issues as well as combining all the german OPness into one handy package:

G43 OP -> even more OP with instant vet.
Rnade squad wiping -> even more easy with increased range from vet and 2 grens can currently insta kill any support weapon.
Smoke, blitz and German tank veterancy already OP -> now you have it even easier and can combine blitz smoke and armor to make tanks really difficult to kill.
Instant vet 3 mortars!!!!!!

Other than this the TA is still OP as hell for what it costs. Yes it reduces your MP and fuel but fuel essentially doesn't count as the TA would have to be on the field for 8-9 mins before it has costed the same amount of fuel as say a normal tiger or IS2 anyway and it will easily bleed more MP than it costs over that time. Also 2v2 3v3 all call in TA is GG.

Solutions:

Hopefully Rnade and G43 will be adjusted anyway as they are silly atm when I play as Germans I simply don't worry about support weapons now with the Rnade.

No vet for non inf units as suggested.

Increase TA cost further limit to one on field at any one time even if two players use this commander.

A fairly weak doctrine.The g43 is completely destroyed. it has less damage then the kar at longer range and lmg42 beats it easily at cc.

Tiger ace? comes to late and and while powerful doesn't fit 1v1 meta anymore.As the tech cost has been increased for both factions call in tanks have a lot more going on and i rather have a normal tiger at 10 cp then a tiger ace at 14 cp not to emntion the tiger ace crippels the fuel income.

That leaves instant vet as the only point of concern but im not really impressed with it not to mention you need to tech up with this doctrine so you never have an abundunce of fuel. the best german doctrines are currently spearhead and assault support.

A fairly weak doctrine.The g43 is completely destroyed. it has less damage then the kar at longer range and lmg42 beats it easily at cc.

Fanboism is strong with you, but you are wrong(again), G43 are twice as strong as Kars at any range except far and they still are stronger then Kars at far range(remember also that far range for G43 is longer then far for Kar), that includes far range. Don't worry, devs are aware of G43 being too strong.

Tiger ace? comes to late and and while powerful doesn't fit 1v1 meta anymore.As the tech cost has been increased for both factions call in tanks have a lot more going on and i rather have a normal tiger at 10 cp then a tiger ace at 14 cp not to emntion the tiger ace crippels the fuel income.

Yet it still saves players and is a strongest piece of armor for 0 fuel cost. It will appear in any decent games, because decent games last longer then 15 minutes. If you get and keep alife P4 before calling TA, there is no stopping for that.

That leaves instant vet as the only point of concern but im not really impressed with it not to mention you need to tech up with this doctrine so you never have an abundunce of fuel. the best german doctrines are currently spearhead and assault support.

In case you have yet to notice for the last 5 months, the doctrine is designed to tech slower and have better(vetted) units on field.
While spearhead was always strong, its on 2nd place after elite troops and lightning war because of G43+tigers.

A fairly weak doctrine.The g43 is completely destroyed. it has less damage then the kar at longer range and lmg42 beats it easily at cc.

Tiger ace? comes to late and and while powerful doesn't fit 1v1 meta anymore.As the tech cost has been increased for both factions call in tanks have a lot more going on and i rather have a normal tiger at 10 cp then a tiger ace at 14 cp not to emntion the tiger ace crippels the fuel income.

That leaves instant vet as the only point of concern but im not really impressed with it not to mention you need to tech up with this doctrine so you never have an abundunce of fuel. the best german doctrines are currently spearhead and assault support.

Tiger ace cripples fuel income but it costs NO fuel so think of it more like a fuel loan than cutting your fuel. Soviets have to save 240 fuel for a is2 and it can barley beat a normal tiger and because it takes so long to float the fuel the TA is not far behind if not at the same time.

I would not agree with the G43 destroyed? have you tried it out? just look at what other players are saying. Its so good because soviet infantry has to close distance to be effective and cant even get close to a g43 squad before losing 4 models. A vetted G43 squad kills soviet inf in seconds.

I would agree spearhead is good because of those MHT. This is a unit I really struggle with so difficult to counter when there played well as you cant counter mortar or snipe, guards cant kill them quick enough so its too risky as they just back up and grens will eat you. I seriously dont know what the counter is. Zis is useless too btw as it just backs up after dropping a flame strike.

Back on topic however TA commander has too many powerful abilities not one of them is bad.

Tiger ace cripples fuel income but it costs NO fuel so think of it more like a fuel loan than cutting your fuel. Soviets have to save 240 fuel for a is2 and it can barley beat a normal tiger and because it takes so long to float the fuel the TA is not far behind if not at the same time.

I would not agree with the G43 destroyed? have you tried it out? just look at what other players are saying. Its so good because soviet infantry has to close distance to be effective and cant even get close to a g43 squad before losing 4 models. A vetted G43 squad kills soviet inf in seconds.

I would agree spearhead is good because of those MHT. This is a unit I really struggle with so difficult to counter when there played well as you cant counter mortar or snipe, guards cant kill them quick enough so its too risky as they just back up and grens will eat you. I seriously dont know what the counter is. Zis is useless too btw as it just backs up after dropping a flame strike.

Back on topic however TA commander has too many powerful abilities not one of them is bad.

Regarding MHT: i think the best counter is an early T34/T70. It´s 40fuel so you should take advantage of that. If not a M3 + Guards.

Back on topic however TA commander has too many powerful abilities not one of them is bad.

and thats why so many players, using/bought this "popular" commander.

Tiger ace cripples fuel income but it costs NO fuel so think of it more like a fuel loan than cutting your fuel. Soviets have to save 240 fuel for a is2 and it can barley beat a normal tiger and because it takes so long to float the fuel the TA is not far behind if not at the same time.

No it is not. Currently i ignore tier 3 and 4 all together and wait for the tiger or is to arrive. and this strat is my opinion the best.

I would not agree with the G43 destroyed? have you tried it out? just look at what other players are saying. Its so good because soviet infantry has to close distance to be effective and cant even get close to a g43 squad before losing 4 models. A vetted G43 squad kills soviet inf in seconds.

The lmg42 performs better. it does better damage and since cover actually became important the main reason to use g43's (namely mobility) have become largely redundant

Regarding MHT: i think the best counter is an early T34/T70. It´s 40fuel so you should take advantage of that. If not a M3 + Guards.

Thats what i love about the mht its a obnoxiously powerful support tool that can be countered by rushing armor to it. But usually leads sending your tanks to a prepared tank killing zone. you cannot imagine how many times i lured the first t-34/t70 into a teller mine with the mt-ht