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Snipers

17 Mar 2014, 18:43 PM
#21
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1

Sorry if I was a bit abrasive in my last post, but my point remians the same. A 66% hit chance isn't all that different then lots of other units and is no way different. Also having a measly 45% chance in the scout car would really incurage people not to use it as much.

I'm all against game deciding RNG like ram as well, but if there is a perfectly good solution that adds just a little bit it, I think it's better then copy-pasting units which in my opinion dumbs down the game. Not all cases of RNG are bad.


My snipers miss from time to time. And i dont mean on retreating units, i mean on normal ones. This happens more often with the soviet snipers than the german snipers.

So snipers can miss from my experience.

I dont want to play SC2 because i actually love the RNG elements in this game. It adds soul to the game. But i dont think that such a RNG change would benefit the gameplay. Snipers are marksmen and you pay quite a lot of MP to get them. Theyre very fragile. I expect them to atleast hit the target theyre shooting at (atleast 95% of the time).

Assymetrical balance is fine, but it isnt when looking at snipers. Snipers in vCOH were both 1 man units, the Wehrmacht had higher firerate (i believe) from the start and had defensive vet bonuses while the american sniper was especially deadly at vet 3 where he could freely move at full speed whether he was cloaked or not. This kind of balance was fine.

It isnt in COH2. Germans lack effective and reliable counters against soviet snipers. You can read my original post here to see why. The reason people complain about snipers is because theyre virtually untouchable. Thats the point. Reducing the squad size and giving each sniper some unique assets would solve this.

RNG isnt really the way to go here. It would make snipers hit less but it wouldnt solve the problem with their durability and the lack of counters. Thats my point.
17 Mar 2014, 19:06 PM
#22
avatar of wooof

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1



My snipers miss from time to time. And i dont mean on retreating units, i mean on normal ones. This happens more often with the soviet snipers than the german snipers.

So snipers can miss from my experience.


only if theyre shooting at units that are in trenches, buildings, smoke, or m3/m5/250. otherwise snipers will never miss a non-retreating unit.

unless of course you mean youre firing from a moving m3/m5/250.
17 Mar 2014, 19:14 PM
#23
avatar of Sarantini
Honorary Member Badge
Donator 22

Posts: 2181

Maybe he means when you have 2 sniper squads shooting at the same time they sometimes target the the same member.

17 Mar 2014, 19:38 PM
#24
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1

Maybe he means when you have 2 sniper squads shooting at the same time they sometimes target the the same member.



This is maybe the reason..
17 Mar 2014, 21:46 PM
#25
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

I really wish we could put to rest the suggestion of one man snipers as it doesn't solve the core issue (scout car + snipers) and would devolve infantry combat into sniping and counter-sniping a la vCoh.


Personally I think the core issue is double snipers and up. Double snipers is not hard to achieve yet the payoff is instant field control wherever you have them (unless he begins blobbing, in which case you get field control wherever he isn't..).

CoH1 didn't have this problem because of early access vehicles, counter-sniping (if you so chose), and Volksgrenadier 5 man squads that could also be upgraded with MP 40's and charged at them.

There was also a side-effect of how abilities worked, you needed to complete the animation for it to happen. So there was no instant-panzerfaust on the Jeep that came within range for half a second, like there is now.
17 Mar 2014, 22:04 PM
#26
avatar of 5trategos

Posts: 449



Personally I think the core issue is double snipers and up. Double snipers is not hard to achieve yet the payoff is instant field control wherever you have them (unless he begins blobbing, in which case you get field control wherever he isn't..).

CoH1 didn't have this problem because of early access vehicles, counter-sniping (if you so chose), and Volksgrenadier 5 man squads that could also be upgraded with MP 40's and charged at them.

There was also a side-effect of how abilities worked, you needed to complete the animation for it to happen. So there was no instant-panzerfaust on the Jeep that came within range for half a second, like there is now.


I don't think I've ever seen two snipers being used effectively on separate fronts (in 1v1). If anything, wouldn't it be easier to counter since 2-3 grens could easily overwhelm each front?

Whenever I go 2+ snipers I keep them together for maximum shock value but it's usually not a good idea to do that early game without a scout car as I'd lose too much mobility.

So really a scout car+sniper for me is the biggest threat as it'll reliably weaken any front that gets pushed while not being too taxing on upkeep.
17 Mar 2014, 23:13 PM
#27
avatar of Darc Reaver

Posts: 194

Hmm well. CoH 1 sniper mechanics were also quite dull. Providing the sniper user had good micro, countersniping was pretty much impossible. This made teamgames pretty much centered around snipers exclusively, and putting many other tactical aspects aside. Which is sad.

But coh2 snipers are simply annoying. Because they pretty much die from everything that they actually should not die from - arty shells, g43 crits (<- lol @ that one), tank shells and other stuff. It's really annoying.
17 Mar 2014, 23:31 PM
#28
avatar of scheme

Posts: 29

More and more I'm thinking Jaeger Infantry is the commander to have in your roster to counter snipers. Ambush Camouflage has its issues but with grens you can faust M3's and pounce on snipers from cover.


funny how you think ambush camo actually, like, works...
18 Mar 2014, 00:05 AM
#29
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

How about making German sniper a bit cheaper to compensate for the lack of spotter?
18 Mar 2014, 14:48 PM
#30
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1

I really wish we could put to rest the suggestion of one man snipers as it doesn't solve the core issue (scout car + snipers) and would devolve infantry combat into sniping and counter-sniping a la vCoh.


I'd much rather prefer Snipers that are countersnipeable with one sniper shot than Snipers one one side which are untouchable due to the lack of counters..

The core issue isnt the Sniper + Clown car combo. Did you ever play someone with double snipers? Did you find that to be balanced and fair? Was it so much better than scout car + sniper??

The clown car isnt doing the damage, its the sniper. The soviet sniper is capable of winning entire games as soon as the critical amount of them ( 2 snipers ) is reached.

You atleast had the possibility to countersnipe in vCOH. You dont have a counter in this game.
18 Mar 2014, 16:25 PM
#31
avatar of 5trategos

Posts: 449



I'd much rather prefer Snipers that are countersnipeable with one sniper shot than Snipers one one side which are untouchable due to the lack of counters..

The core issue isnt the Sniper + Clown car combo. Did you ever play someone with double snipers? Did you find that to be balanced and fair? Was it so much better than scout car + sniper??

The clown car isnt doing the damage, its the sniper. The soviet sniper is capable of winning entire games as soon as the critical amount of them ( 2 snipers ) is reached.

You atleast had the possibility to countersnipe in vCOH. You dont have a counter in this game.


I both played with it and against it and the problem is sniper + clown car. If they're on foot, you can attack somewhere else and expect them to take a while to intercept you. The scout car is much faster to react and much harder to trap.

I also don't want to introduce a game mechanic where snipers are the best counters to other snipers, which is what mirrored one man snipers would do.

I'd much rather have a 221/222 buff or increased accuracy penalty when in scout car.
18 Mar 2014, 17:01 PM
#32
avatar of Sarantini
Honorary Member Badge
Donator 22

Posts: 2181

Or prevent snipers from entering scout cars.
18 Mar 2014, 17:17 PM
#33
avatar of Spanky
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1820 | Subs: 2



I both played with it and against it and the problem is sniper + clown car. If they're on foot, you can attack somewhere else and expect them to take a while to intercept you. The scout car is much faster to react and much harder to trap.

I also don't want to introduce a game mechanic where snipers are the best counters to other snipers, which is what mirrored one man snipers would do.



It doesnt matter if the sniper is on foot or not, a good player will always know how to maximise the usage of sniper/s.

With the target tables gone, you now have units that hard counter each other, so having a 1 man sniper on either side, is a win win. And i loved sniper battles in vcoh, if you pulled off a counter snipe, ohhh the satisfaction.
18 Mar 2014, 17:27 PM
#34
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Or prevent snipers from entering scout cars.

You realize that snipers are more effective on foot?
No missed shots and you can select what to engage, something that is impossible with M3.
18 Mar 2014, 18:38 PM
#35
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

My main problem with snipers is them being able to snipe through smaller obstacles and cover as long as they have LoS... i keep on moving troops behind buildings to keep myself from being sniped, but it just doesnt work. The ability that units can shoot through solid objects is kind of annoying... (of course you can shoot through a wall but i dont understand why accuracy is not decreased by it)
18 Mar 2014, 18:54 PM
#36
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

My main problem with snipers is them being able to snipe through smaller obstacles and cover as long as they have LoS... i keep on moving troops behind buildings to keep myself from being sniped, but it just doesnt work. The ability that units can shoot through solid objects is kind of annoying... (of course you can shoot through a wall but i dont understand why accuracy is not decreased by it)

Then you are playing some other game, because in CoH2 the only unit that shoots through LOS blocking objects is PaK43.
18 Mar 2014, 20:10 PM
#37
avatar of Shazz

Posts: 194

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Mar 2014, 18:54 PMKatitof

Then you are playing some other game, because in CoH2 the only unit that shoots through LOS blocking objects is PaK43.


Slightly off top but that's actually not quite true. There are lots of places you can attack ground with things through LoS blockers, including ones you probably shouldn't be able to like hedgerows (not from realism standpoint, just game mechanics).
18 Mar 2014, 20:17 PM
#38
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Mar 2014, 20:10 PMShazz


Slightly off top but that's actually not quite true. There are lots of places you can attack ground with things through LoS blockers, including ones you probably shouldn't be able to like hedgerows (not from realism standpoint, just game mechanics).

Well, he clearly mentioned a building.
Only PaK43 is capable of piercing it and he insists that sniper did aka the most direct fire weapon in game.
18 Mar 2014, 21:02 PM
#39
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Mar 2014, 17:17 PMSpanky


It doesnt matter if the sniper is on foot or not, a good player will always know how to maximise the usage of sniper/s.

With the target tables gone, you now have units that hard counter each other, so having a 1 man sniper on either side, is a win win. And i loved sniper battles in vcoh, if you pulled off a counter snipe, ohhh the satisfaction.
18 Mar 2014, 21:54 PM
#40
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

I did mention obstacles overall. There are some obstacles that snipers can shoot through if they see the other side. Scouts provide the sniper LoS, and i usually try to hide my infantry behind a building, because i would have assumed it would block his shot. Somehow he would always get a shot through. Some objects block LoS and are solid objects that cannot be passed over, and in some cases, the sniper can shoot in odd spots and hit infantry in wierd places. Trajectory works really strangely in this game. I would observe that a field gun firing at a tank at the top of a hill would sometimes shoot through the ground. Projectiles pass through objects if their target is past that object.
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