Penal Battalions THE THREAD!

Hi all.

I have seen no dedicated thread to Penal Battalions so I decided to make one. This unit has been pretty much ignored since beta and has never been quite up to snuff for its cost IMHO. It has a strange role and really doesnt seem to fit right anywhere. Further its very expensive.

I would like to get people discussing what they think should be done to make Penals worth going Soviet T1 regularly. So I will start.

Penals have excellent early DPS and can be merged with scripts without penalty. They do slightly more DPS then LMG grens while costing 50% more manpower and population cap.

However they tend to lose to LMG grens because of the even spread of their DPS per model while the LMG is on the last Gren model to die. This means that you have a good chance of losing your Penals to LMG grens once they start to appear.

Penals also cost as much as Pgrens. They are not as flexible as Pgrens and their AI is nowhere near their calibur. They CAN beat PGrens if the Pgrens have taken health damage and they get them at long range or RNG blessed them during the Pgren charge and they have a flamer for 60Muni.

Penals have satchels. Satchels are excellent at clearing buildings and wrecking havoc on weapon teams or fools that are not paying attention.

The real problem with Penals is scaling. A unit thats part of the Soviet dedicated AI building that is not equal to the German dedicated AI unit yet costs the same. Some say they arent AI units but I disagree with that 100%.

Now if you were to buff Penals DPS then they would come too soon. It would be like a Pgren rush so early the Ostheer player would really struggle trying to handle it.

If you buffed their armor then they would probably wreck Pgrens and thus make Pgrens without shreks even less of a viable choice for Ostheer.

My preference would be to lower their cost to 320 MP and their upkeep to that of conscripts to make them a valuable and viable unit.

Please discuss.

Cost decrease is probably all they need.
Even if you go for penals, german will have 4 units and 5th on the way by the time you have 2 penals, not to mention the lost field presence and complete lack of capping power.

They are a pretty weird unit. Those SVT's are good at all ranges, but their other powers are all about the close fight, and their DPS is spread out on 6 low armor models, like you said, so they can't really be used in a frontal charge like shocks or panzergrens.

A 40 mp cost decrease would be nice. They'd come out just a wee bit faster and wouldn't cost you as much when you don't have the opportunity to reinforce them through merge.

Instead (or maybe even additionally) a bit stronger vet would make them a better investment, without making them a no-brainer unit in the early game.

They are a pretty weird unit. Those SVT's are good at all ranges, but their other powers are all about the close fight, and their DPS is spread out on 6 low armor models, like you said, so they can't really be used in a frontal charge like shocks or panzergrens.

A 40 mp cost decrease would be nice. They'd come out just a wee bit faster and wouldn't cost you as much when you don't have the opportunity to reinforce them through merge.

Instead (or maybe even additionally) a bit stronger vet would make them a better investment, without making them a no-brainer unit in the early game.

I think they really need early armor vet more than DPS vet. The DPS boose they get at Vet 2 is actually pretty decent. But due to the spread out nature of their DPS and the lack of armor it still falls off too fast to LMG grens.

I would even be happy if they were 240 MP and came only with half SVTs and you paid muni to upgrade them with another 3.

That way they could be non doctrine AI mirrors to Pgrens. Cheap manpower wise and able to use muni to make them great AI.

Or just boost the SVTs into G43 like effectiveness and they only have 3 period. That way their DPS doesnt drop off so fast.

Cost decrease is probably all they need.
Even if you go for penals, german will have 4 units and 5th on the way by the time you have 2 penals, not to mention the lost field presence and complete lack of capping power.

Actually I use them alot. And its typical that I have 3 units to the Ost 5 if I go early Penals.

Because you can build Scripts at the same time as Penals.

And their usefulness in this scenerio is to force retreat Grens. And they will. Which nullifies Grens capping power as well as doing early MP damage to them.

Further with a Scout car even without a flamer you can clear out MGs from buildings.

Finally once you kill your first HMG man it. Now you are on equal terms with them as far as field presence.

Not to mention the look on Osts face when they try to clear out the Penal HMG and the crew kills their Grens and DESTROYS whats pinned.

I WANT to add them to my BO but i find that they just transform into another unit which i need to babysit in some way (merging or being careful on the engagements since they will be killed as fast as cons)

Most of the time i´ll rather have another sniper rather than a Penal.

I would rather see this: "Or just boost the SVTs into (edit)--the same DPS right now-- and they only have 3 period. That way their DPS doesnt drop off so fast."

just put reinforcement cost to 20. your supposed to merge scripts with penals but that's a tedious amount of management

It's their role that needs to be defined more accurately, I think. The abilities/ Vet structure will naturally be built up around improving their role effectiveness/ late game scaling.

Make em specialist at dealing with static enemy positions, I say. make them a distracting force that allows for multi-directional flanks with ordinary cons. Something like a suicidal charge, that can only target a deployed enemy weapon team or bunker and acts in a similar way to ram whereby the squad Uh-Rah's towards the position. As they begin the charge so the timer on the satchel charge should start and when it goes off the squad should be killed along with the enemy weapon team.

If the charge was uncontrollable and was still subject to being able to be pinned it would prevent mass spamming of it. Also if the ability itself cost munitions it would help alleviate this problem.

I could see this being a more interesting role for penals in some Soviet strats and with their ability to effectively counteract German weapon teams could help them maintain effectiveness later in the game.

I have found them several times useful. But only 1 squad, maybe max 2 squads. But they need that special attention, if they are flanked by PGrens then it might be goodbye for suicide squad.

With a little micro they are useful behind conscripts in green cover. They just massacre other squads quickly. Even the ones that are retreating. And also the satchel is great when you manage to find a squad that your opponent has temporarily forgotten.

But I would agree a small buff. Either lower a reinforce cost or then the price of the squad.

Penals have a high DPS and the best offensive veterancy-bonuses of any infantry in the game - and they can deal with garrisoned units. Add to that the ability to merge and we have an infantry semi-glasscanon, where unit preservation is thoroughly rewarded.

I don't think the problem is the Penals, I think the problem is a combination of the player's not-yet-matured understanding of how to utilize this unit, and T1's role in general.

Penals have a high DPS and the best offensive veterancy-bonuses of any infantry in the game - and they can deal with garrisoned units. Add to that the ability to merge and we have an infantry semi-glasscanon, where unit preservation is thoroughly rewarded.

Conscripts also can't complain on their offensive veterancy and its not like they can't deal with garrisons. Add to that no need for being constantly merged and a ppsh doctrinal upgrade and we have an semi assault infantry, where unit perservation is always rewarded because they are relatively easy and cheap to maintain.

I don't think the problem is the Penals, I think the problem is a combination of the player's not-yet-matured understanding of how to utilize this unit, and T1's role in general.

Problem is exactly with penals.

They are not good enough at range, they don't bring any utility that conscripts already have/can have upgraded, they are really onbly effective on mid/close range, but then again, ppsh cons are too, for much less, while not feeding huge vet to opponents.

Penals have no role that other units wouldn't do better, cheaper and more effectively.

just put reinforcement cost to 20. your supposed to merge scripts with penals but that's a tedious amount of management

Sorry but I think this is a bad idea. Merging is a cool ability and skill (finding the time to merge) should always be rewarded. Its better to lower their initial cost and hold on to their reinforcement cost, othervise merging becomes obsolete.

I don't think the problem is the Penals, I think the problem is a combination of the player's not-yet-matured understanding of how to utilize this unit, and T1's role in general.

We have had this game for almost a year now and the penals have barely changed at all. I'm sure most players have a very good understanding of the unit now.

I personnaly have been using the unit for a while now, but most the effect I get out of it is simply because it's different then what most german players are used to and I can surprize them. I don't think there is anything wrong with their effectiveness, but the truth is that they simply are not worth the same initial cost as pgrens and snipers, and the unit is hardly worth calling in at that cost past the early game.

Sorry but I think this is a bad idea. Merging is a cool ability and skill (finding the time to merge) should always be rewarded. Its better to lower their initial cost and hold on to their reinforcement cost, othervise merging becomes obsolete.

As long as penals have 1 armor, merging will never be obsolete for them, even if their own reinforce would be 20 or even 15.

i feel if they decrease the cost they'll screw it up, and we'll have to deal with OP spam penals becoming the new norm for s.u

i feel if they decrease the cost they'll screw it up, and we'll have to deal with OP spam penals becoming the new norm for s.u

They are just not worth 360 MP period. Remember thats the cost of Pgrens. And Pgrens are so much better.

I like the idea of the clearing. Maybe give them a cheaper demo charge that just clears bunkers? 90 muni is more a punishment to the SU player then Ost losing the bunker.

Combine that with 3x stronger SVTs and 3 x Mosins and have the Mosins die first thus preserving DPS?

Big changes I understand but it would serve to give them a defined role and not boost their DPS thus making Pgrens worthless.

They are not good enough at range... they are really onbly effective on mid/close range, but then again, ppsh cons are too

uhh penals are one of the only squads that can do 9 dps at long range. thats more than an lmg squad, but slightly less than a g43 squad. if youre only using them at mid-close range, youre using them wrong.

uhh penals are one of the only squads that can do 9 dps at long range. thats more than an lmg squad, but slightly less than a g43 squad. if youre only using them at mid-close range, youre using them wrong.

I'm not using them wrong, because I'm not using them at all. When soviets could instantly get T1 with industry commander then I was using them for the last time.

And you're pointing here exactly the reason why they are weak(one of them), they are being outperformed by cheaper squad(with an upgrade) that doesn't force you on specific tiering.

I'd love to see penals having improved mid-long range accuracy or cost decreased, because they are definitely not a cost effective unit.

There is definitely something wrong with the unit when its being used out of boredom instead of being a valid choice.

i ve been using them for mor than 50 games in a row and like them the way they are now.

the steep initial cost gets balanced out over the course of a game if you constantly use merge. i would guess that i reinforce them more than 2/3rds ot the time using merge.

reinforcing that way is a little akward at first. but after a while you get used to it and it becomes nearly as fast as just reinforcing normaly.

most of the time i go for 3 cons followed by Penal, m3, penal, heal, then t70/t34. the first penals get flamers right away and go mg hunting. like already mentioned, a penal mg is more than worth it.

My proposal:

-Make them 320 MP to have an inventive to choose penals over snipers.
-Enable shift queuing when merging (so you can merge and then immediately retreat the con squad) to make reinforcing them with less of a hassle.
-Maybe an armor bonus at vet2 (might be too powerful for the cost)

@ alcoholic, what if your opponent gets a flamer ht?