T4 and the Panther

Wow this thread sure degenerated into Germans UP and completely off topic with walls of text that have nothing to do with Panthers or T4.....

Its only missing Jaigen telling how panthers are underpowered and how T34 effortlessly win against them if you leave them unattended in the middle of nowhere with no support.

hm well, like said before: I think t4 got it's reasonable place - summed up: if you don't want to spam Tigers and pIVs.

It's 40f + 50mp more than a Tiger for 3 useful units. Also, 3 useful units against 1 useful unit in t3 (pIV), as StuGs are considered trash and Ostwind is overpriced.

Yeah the poor Ostwind got hit hard by the massive moving accuracy scatter nerf. Its hardly worth it.

I personally love the STUG myself. Cheap and effective but not attack move friendly. Its better AT for more fuel than an SU76 but no barrage.

T4 is king of the team games. I dont understand why some forum folks seem to think its not super powerful.

Because in 2v2 the only time i ever see a P4 is if someone has Elite forces and vets the crap out of one.

T4 is king of the team games. I dont understand why some forum folks seem to think its not super powerful.

because german T4 is almost completely unattainable in 1v1...

No the current meta is shifting towards T4 as PzIV isn't that good vs infantry and the Ostwind is rather fragile anyway. The T34-85 obsession among Sov players with SU85 backup is kinda forcing it too.

A bit like vCOh, you can hold out vs armor with those shreks and double pak if necessary. A lot of people routinely bring out Panthers, Panzerwerfers and even Brumbars. So Soviet meta may shift back toward KV8 to counter heavy T2...

Noob. Germans are hella OP. If ONLY letting Soviet tanks cap points once veteraned and in secure mode (non-offensive) even remotely made up for their glass armor... Really, that's your "BIG ADVANTAGE"? LOL. And I've been playing the hell out of German lately...because they're OP and it's fun to troll and dominate! Soviet is hard mode. This is known consensus. :3

Noob yourself. All the following discutions proved that there are plenty of people thinking the same as I do so I see there is not a "known" consensus. The only reason you are playing lately with germans is that - finally - Relic balanced the game, and now you have to use your brains as soviet too, not just spamming 3-4 unit types and win the game. As player with germans, before last patch you had to have a better micro than your oponent and a bigger value. Now, at list, it's sufficient to have a better micro (because, as a player with german factions, YOU NEED BETTER MICRO THAN WITH SOVIETS. Just walking around some units and throwing from time to time grenades and molotovs it's not micro. Micro is deploying and redeploying your mgs to face the enemy WHILE moving around units trying to keep distance in order to use rifle grenades and such). I could tell you that your "glass" soviet armor is cheaper and it's easier to bring it on the field; that it has abilities that compensate this "disadvantage" and make it more usefull, that while playing with soviets and using "ram" I allways traded a T34 vs a PZIV and it was worthing the money of course, that germans have NO TANK that can squad whipe even vetted units meaning no chance to retreat, and so on. But I guess you will keep your opinion so I stop here .

Wow this thread sure degenerated into Germans UP and completely off topic with walls of text that have nothing to do with Panthers or T4.....

well they kind of do. the reason is that as a german player, you will never, never, never ever get to build a T4 in 1v1 with the exception that you were bossing your opponent around and decided to have a little lol with the brumbär.

soviets on the other hand will have their T4 up before 10-12 minutes and before 15 mins there will already be a hard counter to the panther in the su85 out.

i think that it really is relevant that the meta is shifting in that way. if soviet players largely play doctrine supertanks (IS2, ISU152, KV8, T85) and their only "natural" non-doctrinal counter is the panther (what if i picked a doctrine without a supertank?) it becomes important to me to be able to have a chance to put out that unit.

what i said before is more of a rage rant about that the most powerful tanks in the game also come with the two most powerful elite infantry units in the game - imo that situation doesn't lend itself to good, balanced gameplay.


i stopped playing germans and i'm winning left and right by just building 6-8-10 cons and maybe some guards here and there until i hit a supertank.

well they kind of do. the reason is that as a german player, you will never, never, never ever get to build a T4 in 1v1 with the exception that you were bossing your opponent around and decided to have a little lol with the brumbär.

soviets on the other hand will have their T4 up before 10-12 minutes and before 15 mins there will already be a hard counter to the panther in the su85 out.

i think that it really is relevant that the meta is shifting in that way. if soviet players largely play doctrine supertanks (IS2, ISU152, KV8, T85) and their only "natural" non-doctrinal counter is the panther (what if i picked a doctrine without a supertank?) it becomes important to me to be able to have a chance to put out that unit.

what i said before is more of a rage rant about that the most powerful tanks in the game also come with the two most powerful elite infantry units in the game - imo that situation doesn't lend itself to good, balanced gameplay.


i stopped playing germans and i'm winning left and right by just building 6-8-10 cons and maybe some guards here and there until i hit a supertank.

Thank you for confirming what I have said before. Playing with soviets still feels easier for me too.

While i agree on your first observation about the viability in 1v1, this solution is something i dont.


P.S. large games / 4v4s go just apeshit, i would't even bother to balance that mess.

This, 3v3s and 4v4s have so much balance problems its almost hopeless and not worth relic time.

because german T4 is almost completely unattainable in 1v1...

You mistake me for someone who has 15x more 1v1 Ranked games than 2v2.

The OP mainly plays team games supposedly. Hard to attain in 1v1 hardly makes the units less powerful. Period.

@snekasan

If you are using an ISU152 in 1v1 please dont tell me that you cant get a Panther in that time because thats just a troll move. 290 fuel 11CPs? Yeahhh you got stomped son.

IS2 is 10 CPs too so I think your arguement is based on last patch. The only thing that MAY come before Panthers now are T34/85s. MAYBE.

I understand your frustration. I too quit playing for awhile after facing the Tiger Ace about 30 times in 1v1 and losing 30 times.

Now I am back thanks largely to this patch.

Actually, if you skip T3 and go for T4, panther will arrive before T34/85.

Actually, if you skip T3 and go for T4, panther will arrive before T34/85.

Yeah I wasnt sure thats why I said Maybe.

@JHeartless
You may be right about the ISU152 but considering how much AI the soviets have, and how much MP you end up losing to mortars/flames/cons/snipers/ppsh/lucky zis/insert whatever it costs far more to be in the game and to pre-emptively tech to a panther.

it feels even more stupid to then actually build a panther when there is a majority of crazy infantry on the field. show a brummbär? and there is the IS2 already waiting.

and T85 will ALWAYS come before a panther. but considering their power or considering ram+at-nade you need to be 2v2 (tanks) to win that engagement unless you have shrecks (which you dont because of reinforce cost) or paks (which you don't because a T34 destroyed the entire gun in two shots).

anyways i'm just frustrated at playing soviets but still this is coming from a pretty average player (although i've played the series for years and thousands of games so i'm not completely retarded).

oh and my biggest problem is not even the un-viability of the panther but rather how soviets are all about elite infantry smoking PCP not giving any fucks. surpress a shock with an mg and unless in negative cover they will ALWAYS just crawl all the way to the mg and drop a nade in its face. but i dont want to litter the thread with more rants.

Katitof: seriously? as german, you never have 150 spare fuel just sitting around.

@JHeartless
You may be right about the ISU152 but considering how much AI the soviets have, and how much MP you end up losing to mortars/flames/cons/snipers/ppsh/lucky zis/insert whatever it costs far more to be in the game and to pre-emptively tech to a panther.

it feels even more stupid to then actually build a panther when there is a majority of crazy infantry on the field. show a brummbär? and there is the IS2 already waiting.

and T85 will ALWAYS come before a panther. but considering their power or considering ram+at-nade you need to be 2v2 (tanks) to win that engagement unless you have shrecks (which you dont because of reinforce cost) or paks (which you don't because a T34 destroyed the entire gun in two shots).

anyways i'm just frustrated at playing soviets but still this is coming from a pretty average player (although i've played the series for years and thousands of games so i'm not completely retarded).

oh and my biggest problem is not even the un-viability of the panther but rather how soviets are all about elite infantry smoking PCP not giving any fucks. surpress a shock with an mg and unless in negative cover they will ALWAYS just crawl all the way to the mg and drop a nade in its face. but i dont want to litter the thread with more rants.

Katitof: seriously? as german, you never have 150 spare fuel just sitting around.

I dont think that Panther is the best Choice in 1v1 dont get me wrong. Nor are Shock Troops for the Soviets. They are pretty much equivalent to each other. The Panther comes out late is more expensive and is almost invincible to all but the heaviest tanks and or Ram.

Where STs are the LOL Smoke nading infantry killing Super Soldiers.

Personally I fear a Panther alot more than a P4. Because I can STOP a P4. Its stupidly hard to stop a Panther barring a Mine because the combination of its speed and frontal armor and the low pen of AT nades.

And your right its always funny to see Panthers when there are tons of Soviet infantry and Ost has none.

Its just a waiting game as you out cap and casually walk past the Panther...especially with STs.

Well I don't consider the panther to be a good choice in 1v1 either but since T4 from soviets is up between 8-10 minutes there is very little option. SU85 are going to hit and to be able to do anything against one of them you need 2 PIV's. Or tonnes of supporting infantry for shrecks and fausts. But we all know those supporting infantry are all dead by now.

Also even if the soviets went for T3, 2 T34 are a perfectly viable counter to a panther with ram+extra tank. You said you need to support your units? Well one shock troop (maybe + a conscrpit) is basically enough to chase away 2-3 grens a pgren and a pak witout a problem.

So basically its like you say, if you get a panther out you're screwed. And if you don't? well you're screwed again. That's why I think this game is horrible at the moment. I guess it took vCOH a year or two to get good, but this is really dissapointing considering the expectations.

I think if I face a wall of SU85 and don't go for Panther, I have trouble dealing with them in 1v1

assuming
- elefant doctrine is not chosen
- Pak43 is not chosen

Using Tiger (or even TA) to fight SU85 is like asking RNG God smiling on me.

I think in 1v1 are T4 and panther ballanced. You meet only one panther. But in team games is it in favour horde of panthers. Not inballanced, but need some love tweak it to perfect.

Well I don't consider the panther to be a good choice in 1v1 either but since T4 from soviets is up between 8-10 minutes there is very little option. SU85 are going to hit and to be able to do anything against one of them you need 2 PIV's. Or tonnes of supporting infantry for shrecks and fausts. But we all know those supporting infantry are all dead by now.

Also even if the soviets went for T3, 2 T34 are a perfectly viable counter to a panther with ram+extra tank. You said you need to support your units? Well one shock troop (maybe + a conscrpit) is basically enough to chase away 2-3 grens a pgren and a pak witout a problem.

So basically its like you say, if you get a panther out you're screwed. And if you don't? well you're screwed again. That's why I think this game is horrible at the moment. I guess it took vCOH a year or two to get good, but this is really dissapointing considering the expectations.

The game is not horrible, that I must disagree. Actualy there is more balance after last patch you just need to play it right. My only problem is that is no point at all in nerfing the Panther. A quick hint for the Panther for you, just for amusement: did you ever press blitzkrieg ability and drove your panther towards a massed group of soviet infantry? No? Well do it, it will be fun, you'll see . Try it on shocks, this will make your oponent even more nervous, because he is not expecting to loose shocks to a panther.

If you are having truble with soviet infantry, there are some efficient counters. Straffing run will keep them nailed down. S mines will make their life a living hell. Don't forget about G43s. And so on.

Noob yourself. All the following discutions proved that there are plenty of people thinking the same as I do so I see there is not a "known" consensus. The only reason you are playing lately with germans is that - finally - Relic balanced the game, and now you have to use your brains as soviet too, not just spamming 3-4 unit types and win the game. As player with germans, before last patch you had to have a better micro than your oponent and a bigger value. Now, at list, it's sufficient to have a better micro (because, as a player with german factions, YOU NEED BETTER MICRO THAN WITH SOVIETS. Just walking around some units and throwing from time to time grenades and molotovs it's not micro. Micro is deploying and redeploying your mgs to face the enemy WHILE moving around units trying to keep distance in order to use rifle grenades and such). I could tell you that your "glass" soviet armor is cheaper and it's easier to bring it on the field; that it has abilities that compensate this "disadvantage" and make it more usefull, that while playing with soviets and using "ram" I allways traded a T34 vs a PZIV and it was worthing the money of course, that germans have NO TANK that can squad whipe even vetted units meaning no chance to retreat, and so on. But I guess you will keep your opinion so I stop here .

You're trying to be funny yes? Cause if so you should become a comedian!

I know this is a panther thread but I have to point out a few things that made me nearly shit myself from laughter. First off ... Jesus where to start ... Lets go with MG's. Your think that German MG's are more micro heavy than maxims? The maxim cone of fire is what 25% of the mg42? That alone means that a soviet player will need to shift his MG's much more than a German.

Let's also not forget that soviet AT comes in the form of an assault gun only which is also much more micro intensive than a nos-panther.

And let's not forget that on a one by one unit comparison the axis unit is 99% of the time the better unit forcing the soviet into outplaying the axis player. P4 vs t36/74? P4 wins every time. So soviet had to bring in at guns and ram it, or guards, or two it's etc etc. Panther vs su? Panther can circle strsfe it all day. So soviet player is forced to have at nades nearby, at guns in a triangle, mines, etc etc. Tiger vs is2? Head to heaf is2 loses unless the sov micros in and out of tiger range in between shots etc etc. Do you honestly believe the German faction is more micro intensive?? German "combined arms" in a team game is panthers and pgrens. Done. You can take on everything.

I'm not saying Soviets are UP but please don't try to convince anyone that they don't require micro

Lol at Maxims take more micro than MG42. Repositioning the maxim is so fast, that I've seen many people using it to CAP points XD

Lol at Maxims take more micro than MG42. Repositioning the maxim is so fast, that I've seen many people using it to CAP points XD

I've used both MGs to take points frequently, and since when is repositioning not micro?