T4 and the Panther

versatile[ vur-suh-tl or, esp. British, -tahyl ]
adjective
1. capable of or adapted for turning easily from one to another of various tasks, fields of endeavor, etc.: a versatile writer.
2. having or capable of many uses: a versatile tool.
3. attached at or near the middle so as to swing freely, as an anther.

Where is soviets versatile, beening restricted to tech builds like t2 to t3, t1 to t4 or vice vercer is not versatile. Then having to use commanders to fill in the gaps because of you teching choices is not versatile.

Soviets are the best due to their ease of use and versatility, Germans are the best if you can micro well and have a good build-order (which nullifies the Soviet advantage).

Wait, what? Your last paragraph contradicts the others.

They're versatile because their basic infantry can counter infantry counters (Tanks, MG's) with upgrades. MG's can get molotoved and are forced to fall back, Tanks can get AT Grenaded and are forced to pull back. Conscripts can also Oorah, which amplifies the previous abilities by allowing them to cover ground much more quickly.

Then you have minor things like Tanks that can capture territory or can suicide themselves to cripple the enemy, and AT Guns that can wipe an Infantry attack, or MG's that can be used much like an infantry squad, ability to reinforce from Conscripts, stuff like that.

Overall I just find myself having an easier time with the Soviets. Cheap upgrades, large squads, decent units, and very potent doctrines.

In both VCOH and COH2 as Germans I go T3 in 1 v 1, and in definitely T4 in 3 v 3 or 4 v 4.

2 v 2 is variable.

1 v 1: Stug IV Spam, teching, Tiger
1 v 1: Panzer IV/Stug III/or Ostwind, then Tiger

team games: Stug IV Spam, teching, Tiger, then Panthers when the fuel starts accumulating.

team games: Panther Brummbar, etc.

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The big team games involve big fights and armor & firepower tends to win here.

1 v 1 is more like a chess game: counter this, counter that, maneuver this, etc.

Wait, what? Your last paragraph contradicts the others.

sorry last paragraph was a quote from another member, dont know why its at the bottom.

Soviets are the best due to their ease of use and versatility, Germans are the best if you can micro well and have a good build-order (which nullifies the Soviet advantage).

Huh? I think it's the other way around. however, both players need some micro, else they'll fail horribly.

Huh? I think it's the other way around. however, both players need some micro, else they'll fail horribly.

I've always had an easier time with Soviets. It's easier to just point a squad at a sector and check up on them every once in awhile. Not like Ostheer where I could send them off to a sector, look back 10 seconds later and 3 of them are on fire! Soviets are quite nasty with the squad wipes if you don't watch, and sometimes even if you do. But at the same time they're virtually immune to it due to model count and severe lack of Ostheer AI.

Ostheer Tanks can be a challenge to deal with, but proper use of Conscripts, Field Guns, SU-76, and SU-85 make it manageable.

I've always had an easier time with Soviets. It's easier to just point a squad at a sector and check up on them every once in awhile. Not like Ostheer where I could send them off to a sector, look back 10 seconds later and 3 of them are on fire! Soviets are quite nasty with the squad wipes if you don't watch, and sometimes even if you do. But at the same time they're virtually immune to it due to model count and severe lack of Ostheer AI.

Ostheer Tanks can be a challenge to deal with, but proper use of Conscripts, Field Guns, SU-76, and SU-85 make it manageable.

Hmm well. Timing molotovs ain't too easy. If your enemy watches his units you wasted ammunition + cooldown for them without inflicting damage. Same counts for Mortar strikes and other stuff.

On the other hand, I've had multiple games during the last days where I managed to get 2-3 ppsh squad wipes with a single Pgren that I moved through their retreating path. So, both factions have their squad wipe power...

In general it's ridiculous how easy everything dies on retreat. I just love it...

I've always had an easier time with Soviets. It's easier to just point a squad at a sector and check up on them every once in awhile. Not like Ostheer where I could send them off to a sector, look back 10 seconds later and 3 of them are on fire! Soviets are quite nasty with the squad wipes if you don't watch, and sometimes even if you do. But at the same time they're virtually immune to it due to model count and severe lack of Ostheer AI.

I wouldn't say ostheer lack AI. They have atleast one dedicated AI unit in each tier: MG and sniper in T1, flame halftrack and Pgrens in T2, Ostwind in T3, and that big old assault gun whos name I can't quite remember at the moment.

That's six dedicated options for germans to fight infantry and they aren't lacking at it. A ostwind or flame halftrack will quickly wipe units.

Compare that to soviets dedicated AT and they only have 2 options: Zis and SU-85, which are only available in HALF of their tiers.

And while germans get very effective anti-AI to fight the the more durable soviet infantry, Even the soviets AT gun is lacking against armor.

Brummbars don't wipe Soviet infantry squads in one blow like the isu152 or is2, PGrens are powerful but only just as durable as regular Grenadiers. Ostwinds don't wipe out infantry squads. Flamethrower Halftracks does so little damage now since all flame weapons rely on crits to kill.

Yes, The Germans does have good Anti Infantry units, but they are still nowhere near as absurd as the Soviet anti infantry.

Brummbar is the only unit in COh2 where I can frequently get ~100 kills in a team game.

Oh, you actually forgot the TM 35 mines... Their squad wiping potential is obscene! Had a full hp dual schreck pgren squad being blown up by a single mine today. Pretty awesome... NOT.

Brummbars don't wipe Soviet infantry squads in one blow like the isu152 or is2, PGrens are powerful but only just as durable as regular Grenadiers. Ostwinds don't wipe out infantry squads. Flamethrower Halftracks does so little damage now since all flame weapons rely on crits to kill.

Yes, The Germans does have good Anti Infantry units, but they are still nowhere near as absurd as the Soviet anti infantry.

Brommbars also don't cost 240+ fuel and aren't doctrinal.

And the 'soviet absurd anti infantry' as you say it, is all doctrinal, late game armor.

Although it's evened out slightly, it's still noticeably more people who play Germans. They can't be that bad.

Brummbars don't wipe Soviet infantry squads in one blow like the isu152 or is2, PGrens are powerful but only just as durable as regular Grenadiers. Ostwinds don't wipe out infantry squads. Flamethrower Halftracks does so little damage now since all flame weapons rely on crits to kill.

Yes, The Germans does have good Anti Infantry units, but they are still nowhere near as absurd as the Soviet anti infantry.

I've experienced squad wipes with the Brummbar, especially A/T guns.

Ostwinds and Flame H/T's do not instant wipe a squad but they sure can cause some havoc if used by a brave soul. The Flame H/T keeps pace with units in retreat. If the German player is on the ball they can wipe squads by following them back into the base. Same applies with the Ostwind.

Yeah you can get wipes with Ostheer micro, but Soviet abilities and units don't require that kind of micro, so that is by definition imbalanced. I think it needs to be toned down but I don't mind that kind of asymmetrical balance. Except for the flamer car, the Soviets no longer have a unit that can chase down retreating units like that and kill them.

People mostly play Germans, because most people play 3v3 and 4v4s and the design of all those maps heavily favors the MG42 with its wide arcs of fire. If the maps were larger, and had fewer choke points, I suspect it would look different. And people just really like the Axis armor. What would you rather drive around in, an IS-2, or the Tiger, with its shape recognizable by even non-WWII buffs as a German tank?

Squad whipe = Panzerwerfer.....

My poor poor Shocks. All the letters home my poor commander had to write....

Brommbars also don't cost 240+ fuel and aren't doctrinal.

And the 'soviet absurd anti infantry' as you say it, is all doctrinal, late game armor.

This is pretty much an irrelevant statement because there are only 3-4 commanders at a max that are used in soviet 1v1 play and they all give ridiculous early and late game units.

they also ALL include elite infantry (which the ostheer lacks completely) in

-Guards
-Shocks

the same doctrines frequently come with call in flame arty or the howitzer (which completely eliminates any usefulness of MGs AND PAK40/43 and at least 3 of the commanders come with one or more ridiculous tanks as the KV8, IS2, ISU152 etc. oh yeah they also come with PPSH upgrades. At least 3 doctrines overlap in this way. Did i mention that the same doctrines also frequently have the skillplane in there just for good measure?

this is bad because the soviet commanders give you an all-in-one package while germans usually have 1-2 useful abilities at most (like the G43 or tiger).

with germans the commander choices are narrowed down to

-"do i want a tiger at 10cp when i'm already defeated?"
or
-"do i want G43 to stay in the game but get roflstomped by a flametank
or
-"do i want to get squadwiped by a single 30 muni mine"
or
-"do i just get completely wrecked by a single mortar shell"
or
"do i want to pay to have a commander with both early and late game perks (elite troops) with immense risk/reward implications


you see the difference? as soviet you just rock on the same path with the same killer units or as german you either pay or have to be a much much much better player on top of his game.


just waiting myself for a DLC with a german elite call-in infantry. an 8-man squad with 2 shrecks one "marksman" and 5mp 44's. oh yeah and a KT late-game tank. i'd pay €10 right now to get a half-fair matchup as a german.

lol

Wow this thread sure degenerated into Germans UP and completely off topic with walls of text that have nothing to do with Panthers or T4.....

hm well, like said before: I think t4 got it's reasonable place - summed up: if you don't want to spam Tigers and pIVs.

It's 40f + 50mp more than a Tiger for 3 useful units. Also, 3 useful units against 1 useful unit in t3 (pIV), as StuGs are considered trash and Ostwind is overpriced.