PPSH x3 Aftermath Update

Since this seems to be a hot topic, and I didn't see a thread anywhere, I thought i'd start one here.

Here is my take

The Good:
-This upgrade now makes the PPSH feel significant, and justifies its place in a commander tree, always a good thing.
-The ability costing 30 munis hurts a little more than the no-brainer 10 muni upgrade, and actually pressures your munitions income if you choose to throw lots of molotovs in the early game. The cost could be looked at, because currently it seems pretty damn cost effective. I think a cost raise is in order.
-3 CPs feels spot on

The Bad:
-PPSH conscripts should absoloutly not be in a commander w/ either Guards or Shocks. It makes conscripts an extremely cost effective and versatile unit that is both easy to use and can act as an effective screen for snipers, or be used to thwart off vehicles w/ at nades.

Essentially it gives you the ability to field a standing army of entirely conscripts, filling the role of both shocks and guards in both AI and AT but to a lesser extent.

Having to deal with ppsh conscripts AND guards or shocks in the Guard Rifle Combined and Soviet Shock army(thanks commander tool) is just overwhelming. If the PPSH is to stay as effective as it is, (which I honestly think is fine, and a positive step in the right direction as far as giving commanders significant upgrades that actually feel useful. The previous PPSH only served as essentially a (almost) free passive dps boost that didn't really feel all that significant.) then I don't feel it has any place in a doctrine w/ other elite soviet infantry.

Maybe i'm totally wrong on this one and the numbers don't back it up, but at first glace after 10-15 games this is my feeling on it.

I think taking the PPSH out of the guard/shock doctrines and raising the muni cost to ~50 would put this ability in a good spot. However, easier said than done as that would most likely require a significant rework of the commanders.

What do you guys think?

+1. Couldn't put it much better myself.

I think that's reasonable and might be right,

but even if this change balances the ability, I think there's a problem with it really making pgrens cost-ineffective. I've been playing games where I get pgrens fast, even get lucky as crap and fully wipe 3 con squads in the first 4 to 6 minutes, only to have spelled my own doom by investing in 2 to 3 pgrens...because inspite of that seemingly monumental early game, the second wave of cons, now upgraded, just annihilate me in the manpower war.

Granted, take guards out of a doctrine with ppsh, and then guards don't help your opponent deal with fht---so maybe that's all that is needed to keep pgrens viable, hmmm

Take my +1

I also like that the ppsh upgrade has a more significant impact but I think there should be more of a trade-off for picking it.

Specifically, I'd like to see their damage output reduced further at range so that upgraded scripts become nearly useless at medium and long range.

Upgraded scripts would then become dedicated close range units.

[img="http://tiny-img.com/image.php?dm=O7HK" alt=""]

I also like that the ppsh upgrade has a more significant impact but I think there should be more of a trade-off for picking it.

Specifically, I'd like to see their damage output reduced further at range so that upgraded scripts become nearly useless at medium and long range.

Upgraded scripts would then become dedicated close range units.

OMG, 3 models have ppsh and 3 models have mosim (rifle). You want nerf rifles?
PPSH have 3-4x less dps on mid distance then in close fight. StG is 2-3x better on mid. And G43 eat constripts very easy.

Whine after two days of patch.
Try G43, this is counter ppsh.

45 munis and remove from other elite infantry doctrines. +1

OMG, 3 models have ppsh and 3 models have mosim (rifle). You want nerf rifles?
PPSH have 3-4x less dps on mid distance then in close fight. StG is 2-3x better on mid. And G43 eat constripts very easy.

Whine after two days of patch.
Try G43, this is counter ppsh.

+1

I miss shock troops.

45 munis and remove from other elite infantry doctrines. +1

Show me your stat card please?
I respect peoples palying both side. I dont and therefore do not propose balance for soviets.

i think the problem is conscripts can be spammable, and you need 2 gren to deal 1 ppsh conscript if you want 100 % win(not included german grenades)

i think the problem is conscripts can be spammable, and you need 2 gren to deal 1 ppsh conscript if you want 100 % win(not included german grenades)

In team games you never build more then four constripts. OST have mostly two grenadiers with lmg42 and two pz grenadiers. OST players simply run into scripts as how they were used in past. With both units is this wrong.
In 1v1 this can be problem, but in team games I seem alright.

I think PPSH upgrade cost should be increased. It feels a bit too cheap ATM for what it provides.

I think PPSH upgrade cost should be increased. It feels a bit too cheap ATM for what it provides.

Maybe around 40-45. It's still not quite as good as the lmg upgrade or a flamethrower.

Shock troops was never seen again..

Maybe around 40-45. It's still not quite as good as the lmg upgrade or a flamethrower.

Yeah. 40-45 would be fine.

the cons armor its cheap to, only 1.0! not to mention germans have MG42, BETTER inf armor, bunkers, so on, so on

I think at 3ppsh it just causes too much damage, reduce it to 2 ppsh

I think at 3ppsh it just causes too much damage, reduce it to 2 ppsh

2 ppsh-s conscripts are dead in late game, this is why they have 3 now, to be better in late games, that is another problem if you will be raped in early- earlymiddle game.