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7CP 2x T34/85 and 9CP 1x T34/85

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Sarantini
18 Feb 2014, 14:46 PM
#41
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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2014, 14:41 PMMad_Hatter
IMO they once again completely neutered a soviet unit that didnt need it. The t34/85 was a meh callin to begin with. An anti tank tank that can't come close to going toe to toe with the big cats (hell it struggles vs p4) for about the same price is a joke. The only benefit it had is that you could get them before the big cats hit the field but that's out the window now. GG once more relic to making pointless changes to ensure continued axis superiority through all stages of the game. Well balanced indeed.

What? Guards/snipers into t3485 was extremely popular. You could get 2 t3485 (who arent bad at all) the same time as the german had a 1 p4 and not enough fuel for another. It made teching irrelevant
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Speculator
18 Feb 2014, 14:53 PM
#42
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2 T34/85s before 1 p4 is impossible unless the Ost player was REALLY struggling. Not only do you have to wait for 7CP, you'll have to float resources before you can call that in.
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Mad_Hatter
18 Feb 2014, 15:03 PM
#43
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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2014, 14:46 PMSarantini

What? Guards/snipers into t3485 was extremely popular. You could get 2 t3485 (who arent bad at all) the same time as the german had a 1 p4 and not enough fuel for another. It made teching irrelevant


It was popular yes but not because the t34/85 was awesome but simply because the tree have you a callin at 7cp plus mark vehicle. The t34/85 itself is meh at best which is why it made sense to hsve it come in early. A 7cp is2 would be op. But honestly 9cp t34/85 (at a cost increase) is a bad move imo. If they wwre going to do thst they should have strapped a 105mm gun on it instead and make it worth it :p
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Cardboard Tank
18 Feb 2014, 15:17 PM
#44
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The only problem I see is that people expect the T-34/85 to win head on versus Panthers and Tigers. With mark target, guards button ability and some flanking (thus you get two tanks) they actually do beat those. Also the T-34/85 isn´t an anti tank vehicle by nature unlike the Panther. Thus it has better anti infantry capabilities.

I don´t know whether they come out too late at 9 CPs, I have to play that first. But on the other hand there´s the risk that a single Panzer IV or even two for that matter with mark target get overpowered by the T-34/85s.

There is other stuff in the doctrine that improves the T-34/85s anti tank performance drastically.
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Basilone
18 Feb 2014, 15:21 PM
#45
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I think the 2x 240 fuel 7cp is fine, because if you go for the call-in ASAP (no tanks before them) it takes around 15 minutes to get that fuel in a somewhat even game. Maybe statistically they need a nerf, but timing wise they come when they should imo.
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FriedRise
18 Feb 2014, 16:26 PM
#46
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I think the price for the single T34/85 call-in is reasonable for the fact that you don't have to spend resources to build T3. The 9CP is a little late though - it's only 1CP shy of Ostheer getting a Tiger. So in an even match you'll most likely need to go T4 to get some proper AT.

The first T34/76s cost 555MP + 175FU (cost of T3 + tank). The first T34/85 costs 360MP + 130FU. Even 2 T34/85s would still cost less than fielding 2 T34/76s. You get a better all-around tank several minutes later for less price, but one can argue that by the time your first T34/85 hits the field, you could've had 2-3 T34/76s already.
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Jinseual
18 Feb 2014, 17:24 PM
#47
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I don't see the point of changing from two T3485s to one T3485. If the problem is because the player can call them too early without any tech building then the 9 cp change would be enough. I see no reason for the t3485 to be more expensive since it still loses too a Panzer IV ( victory is rng ) and it cost way more.

People argue that it's actually cheaper because it doesn't require a tech building but since it cost a lot more cps to call in, I no longer see the point of waiting such a long time to call in one overpriced mediocre tank so players will be making the T3 or T4 buildings anyways.

The t3485s should be reverted back to it's original price of 320 mp and 120 fuel since 9 cps is already a big nerf.
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wooof
18 Feb 2014, 17:54 PM
#48
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you guys need to think about this in terms of balance. if the t34/85 can be called in 1 at a time with the same cost as the double call in (and even at fewer cps as some have suggested) why would anyone want the double call in? the single would be better in every way.

the main advantage of the single call in is flexibility. say you want a t34/85 and su85. now that only requires 245 fuel + teching as opposed to 355 fuel. also, if you dont have 240 fuel once you hit the cp requirement, you wont have any tanks with the double call in. the single call in lets you have 1 tank on the field while you save up enough for the other one.
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Shazz
18 Feb 2014, 19:55 PM
#49
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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2014, 17:54 PMwooof
you guys need to think about this in terms of balance. if the t34/85 can be called in 1 at a time with the same cost as the double call in (and even at fewer cps as some have suggested) why would anyone want the double call in? the single would be better in every way.

the main advantage of the single call in is flexibility. say you want a t34/85 and su85. now that only requires 245 fuel + teching as opposed to 355 fuel. also, if you dont have 240 fuel once you hit the cp requirement, you wont have any tanks with the double call in. the single call in lets you have 1 tank on the field while you save up enough for the other one.


Finally someone in this thread that gets it.

T34/85 is the best all rounder tank in the game at the moment. Now it will be able to be paired with soviet T4 without impossibly high fuel costs.

I see this commander being very attractive in 1v1 or 2v2. Maybe even too attractive. Time will tell once all the changes hit.

EDIT: Typo.
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OZtheWiZARD
18 Feb 2014, 21:31 PM
#50
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It doesn't matter if it is. Single call in of the same unit shouldn't be more expensive than a double one.
And I believe PzIV holds the title of the best all around tank.
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Katitof
18 Feb 2014, 21:37 PM
#51
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It would probably be best for T34/85 to remain at 320/115 for single call-in and for dual call-in to be cut in cost.

After all 34/85 is just as effective as P4, while coming (now) much later into the game.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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WiFiDi
18 Feb 2014, 21:44 PM
#52
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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2014, 21:31 PMOZtheWiZARD
It doesn't matter if it is. Single call in of the same unit shouldn't be more expensive than a double one.
And I believe PzIV holds the title of the best all around tank.


concepts of mass productions is that less you make the more money you end up paying per uniit of whatever it is. but i think it makes sense for other reasons game play reasons prevents you from spamming them by making them more expensive.

edit: in fact just look below, pq said what I was trying to say (only i failed horribly.) :)
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pqumsieh
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18 Feb 2014, 21:53 PM
#53
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The reasoning is quite simple, there is a greater opportunity cost associated to a double call-in given you have to save up 240 fuel. For that reason, the double call-in is provided at a discount. The cost of the single call-in T34-85 better represents what its cost would be if it was integrated into the core tech.

Bottom line, saving up 240 fuel has an associated opportunity cost; therefore, we provide the user a slight discount to compensate for this factor.
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Mad_Hatter
18 Feb 2014, 22:14 PM
#54
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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2014, 19:55 PMShazz


Finally someone in this thread that gets it.

T34/85 is the best all rounder tank in the game at the moment. Now it will be able to be paired with soviet T4 without impossibly high fuel costs.

I see this commander being very attractive in 1v1 or 2v2. Maybe even too attractive. Time will tell once all the changes hit.

EDIT: Typo.


The tiger easily trumps the t34/85 as all around best tank. Hell a tiger tank was arguably better than even 2 t34/85s. Why would I call in one of these overpriced PoSs now that I'm already being forced to tech into either t3 or t4? Its not good enough AI to protect su85s from infantry and its not good enough AT to keep t34/76s safe from the big kitties especially not at its cost.

If I'm looking for a callin AI tank support for my su85 I may as well go a tree that has a kv8 (seeing as how they come in at the same time now too lolol). If you're going to go this route then just let the tree unlock an upgun option for the t34/76 at 9 cps that only costs munitions so that you don't have to spend a million fuel on a paper tank with a slightly bigger peashooter
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WilliG
18 Feb 2014, 22:14 PM
#55
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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2014, 21:53 PMpqumsieh
The reasoning is quite simple, there is a greater opportunity cost associated to a double call-in given you have to save up 240 fuel. For that reason, the double call-in is provided at a discount. The cost of the single call-in T34-85 better represents what its cost would be if it was integrated into the core tech.

Bottom line, saving up 240 fuel has an associated opportunity cost; therefore, we provide the user a slight discount to compensate for this factor.


I wonder is there a quantifiable means to measure the "opportunity cost" for call ins/units? Or is it kind of guess/check in the beta?

Otherwise this makes total sense to me as the single call in you can get on the field quicker and exploit a gap or something and also gives greater flexibility with army composition. Meanwhile waiting for that 240 fuel gives the opponent an opportunity to exploit the fact that you do not have any armor.
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Speculator
18 Feb 2014, 22:25 PM
#56
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The discount always made sense for the dual call in, but the CP costs seems a bit high for a unit that will come in at a time after P4s have hit the field, and around the same time a Panther is produced.

It's similar to the KV1 in it's effectiveness against medium tanks. One's a tank, pardon the pun, and the other's a damage dealer (although the KV1's survivability is higher than the T34/85 in a 1 on 1 against a P4); so shouldn't the T34/85 come in at the same time a KV1 could be called in after the new CP change (rumored at 8CP)?
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Katitof
18 Feb 2014, 22:42 PM
#57
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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2014, 21:53 PMpqumsieh
The reasoning is quite simple, there is a greater opportunity cost associated to a double call-in given you have to save up 240 fuel. For that reason, the double call-in is provided at a discount. The cost of the single call-in T34-85 better represents what its cost would be if it was integrated into the core tech.

Bottom line, saving up 240 fuel has an associated opportunity cost; therefore, we provide the user a slight discount to compensate for this factor.

Then why not 320/115 for single one and discount for double call-ins?
After all this is P4 level tank that will come much later now.

What is the reasoning behind putting P4 level tank 1 CP before IS-2/Tiger?
To me that doesn't make much sense.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Tristan44
18 Feb 2014, 22:48 PM
#58
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It can also ram and disable (percentage) any heavy tank...
http://www.twitch.tv/tristand44
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wooof
18 Feb 2014, 22:48 PM
#59
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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2014, 22:42 PMKatitof

Then why not 320/115 for single one and discount for double call-ins?
After all this is P4 level tank that will come much later now.

What is the reasoning behind putting P4 level tank 1 CP before IS-2/Tiger?
To me that doesn't make much sense.


the t34/85 is better than a p4. it doesnt need another cost reduction. also, t34/85 spam without teching was far too common last patch for a reason. there was no incentive to tech when call ins came out so early.
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OZtheWiZARD
18 Feb 2014, 22:51 PM
#60
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From my experience you're usually waiting for CP rather than for fuel when you're going double T-34/85 call in.
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