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Sniper Balance

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Katitof
31 Jan 2014, 16:57 PM
#41
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jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jan 2014, 16:41 PM__deleted__


We understand the factions are different and we want them to remain different, but that doesn't mean the current state of everything is balanced. Although what you say is true, that is a minor feature especially since soviet conscripts are a 6 man squad vs a 4 man grenadier squad. 1 shot from soviets is 25% damage to german. 1 shot from germans is only approx. 17% damage to soviets. If that makes sense.

Well, at max range german sniper shoots twice as fast as soviet one, so which squad will loose dps more rapidly after initial shot?
Because you know, the skirmish doesn't end after initial shot.

It doesn't matter if there is 2 more models if they drop twice as fast you know.
better don't go this way or we'll reach the conclusion that german sniper killing power is op and in need of a nerf.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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ferrozoica
31 Jan 2014, 17:49 PM
#42
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It really doesn't matter if the German sniper shoots faster or cloaks better etc.

If the Soviets want to hard counter snipers they build; snipers.

If the Germans want to hard counter snipers they... do what exactly?
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elchino7
31 Jan 2014, 18:11 PM
#43
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Mortars! Followed up by 10 prayers to the RNG Gods.

I think it´s more a situation of forcing your opponent to make a mistake with them than rather a direct counter.
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miragefla
31 Jan 2014, 18:16 PM
#44
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Well, countering with the German sniper requires vet 1 which will mean he will need to be on the field longer to gain this vet and require the expensive investment of the med bunker to keep health. His pathetic HP pool doesn't help when lucky shots at max range can take out 1/3rd of his life making it more difficult to keep him on the field in fear RNG will get him killed.

From T1, yeah, only a lucky mortar may get him unless you happen to have a shot/LOS blocker, LOS on the sniper, a grenadier squad and T2 for rifle grenades and that's if they don't move their sniper after every shot which a good player tends to do.
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nateums
31 Jan 2014, 18:39 PM
#45
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germans dont counter sniper with snipers... they use the early t2 units combined with t1 which the RU lack early game here are a few counters:
1.) get 4 units+ bunker a cutoff ro not bleed MP (they have nothing to kill the bunker... and then get the SC AS A DETERRENT.
2.) mort or MHT to keep the other player busy moving his sniper
3.) use a HT to rein and have MG, mort, and grens pushing all TOGERTHER. (a sniper cant kill that fast if you rein.) target the guards with the MG+ rifle nades. the mort should focus on the sniper and you should keep all the units reinf from the HT.


the german sniper: used after the russian one is dead, and used WITH SUPPORT to bleed expensive units like shocks and guards and high vet squads
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Tristan44
31 Jan 2014, 18:59 PM
#46
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Smart sov players get guards with snipers. Guards destroy bunkers with ease.

I played a guy last night named 2dollars who actually didn't get guards with his sniper and did a damn fine job against all my counters. G43s never caught sniper off guard since cons were protecting him at all times. Same said about scout cars, he at nades them. Then I got a mortar and he just countered that with 120mm mortar. That guy was damn good he owned my cocky ass.
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OZtheWiZARD
31 Jan 2014, 23:31 PM
#47
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I like to counter Soviet snipers with mortars or T2 vehicles flanks.
Sometimes ignoring Sniper is enough so I just let manpower bleeds and go for tanks not focusing on killing Sniper at all.

Snipers are very specific units and I believe it can be quite hard to get them right and balanced.
Soviet sniper has better chances in surviving lucky mortar shot yes, but German sniper got higher rate of fire and very effective stealth mechanics.
I think the real problem with German sniper is that its difficult to master, but when you finally get the micro right it will transform into a killing machine almost impossible to catch of guard.
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__deleted__
1 Feb 2014, 15:59 PM
#48
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Posts: 236

Well lets not forget the german sniper is currently bugged on his cloak and his firing. He doesn't always fire and will constantly hold fire even when hold fire isn't selected. Also attack move doesn't work with him always as well.
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Omega_Warrior
1 Feb 2014, 17:11 PM
#49
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jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2014, 15:59 PM__deleted__
Well lets not forget the german sniper is currently bugged on his cloak and his firing. He doesn't always fire and will constantly hold fire even when hold fire isn't selected. Also attack move doesn't work with him always as well.

I don't know why so many people seem to think that this is only the german sniper. The bug plagues the russian sniper as well. Although it seems to happen a bit less, probably due to the second man moving around undoing it or something.
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carloff
2 Feb 2014, 07:01 AM
#50
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Posts: 301

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jan 2014, 16:41 PM__deleted__
We understand the factions are different and we want them to remain different, but that doesn't mean the current state of everything is balanced. Although what you say is true, that is a minor feature especially since soviet conscripts are a 6 man squad vs a 4 man grenadier squad. 1 shot from soviets is 25% damage to german. 1 shot from germans is only approx. 17% damage to soviets. If that makes sense.

You can still run with german infantry squads at same speed in direction of soviet sniper team and force them to move or risk lost the unit. Combine this with slow fire mode of sovsnipeteam and you will understand how to counter them with any german infantry squad.
And then it come to counter duel - german sniper vs soviet squads. You can't run and force out german sniper without losing 3-4 of squad members.

As a result, germans got a better mp bleed unit, what is greatly denying map control and tech.
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carloff
2 Feb 2014, 07:03 AM
#51
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Posts: 301

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jan 2014, 17:49 PMferrozoica
If the Germans want to hard counter snipers they... do what exactly?

Basic grenadiers can force the sniper team to run or die. But best way to deal with snipers is the scout cars.
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carloff
2 Feb 2014, 07:05 AM
#52
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jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2014, 17:11 PMOmega_Warrior

I don't know why so many people seem to think that this is only the german sniper. The bug plagues the russian sniper as well. Although it seems to happen a bit less, probably due to the second man moving around undoing it or something.

Hope they'll fix that asap.
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Kronosaur0s
2 Feb 2014, 11:46 AM
#53
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Posts: 1701

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2014, 07:03 AMcarloff

Basic grenadiers can force the sniper team to run or die. But best way to deal with snipers is the scout cars.



Yeah, thats the theory, but when playing, a SKILLED soviet player will place GUARDS infront of the sniper, so your grens when starting to walking-chasing the sniper, they will shoot at the guards, and these, protect also those snipers from Scout cars and Halftracks and bla bla... next idea to counter them?
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OZtheWiZARD
2 Feb 2014, 13:19 PM
#54
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Mortar
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ThoseDeafMutes
2 Feb 2014, 13:20 PM
#55
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2014, 07:03 AMcarloff

Basic grenadiers can force the sniper team to run or die. But best way to deal with snipers is the scout cars.


In theory the scout car is the hard counter to snipers. And unsupported, that's definitely true. However in practice it's a crapshoot, especially in a 2v2 context. Even shocks are great against German scoutcars, they deal tremendous damage if you get close to them. If you get close to cons, they will AT grenade you for either an instant kill or a complete crippling, minimum. And you can't get close to guards for obvious reasons. I have had modest success at countering snipers with Rifle grenades, but I would never recommend that as any kind of main strategy, it's very situational as to whether it's viable to use or not.

I do use scoutcars as a counter for clowncar+sniper, but I don't see that as often as I used to now that people love using shocks so much. I'd say that scout cars are a high-risk counter to Sov sniper. Sometimes it works well, often you can't close in for the kill, and it's not that uncommon to get unlucky and lose your scout car almost straight away.
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Ossy
23 Feb 2014, 16:58 PM
#56
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In my opninion the problem is not the squadsize of the soviet sniper. The problem is that with one shot it eliminates 25% of the total health and firepower of a german squad.

The solution would be to make the Soviet snipers doctrinal. Reducing them to one man won't solve anything they would still have the effect of mentioned above.

Ofcourse this change would require to lower the rof of the german sniper and lower damage output of the G43.
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Katitof
23 Feb 2014, 17:59 PM
#57
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Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Feb 2014, 16:58 PMOssy
In my opninion the problem is not the squadsize of the soviet sniper. The problem is that with one shot it eliminates 25% of the total health and firepower of a german squad.

The solution would be to make the Soviet snipers doctrinal. Reducing them to one man won't solve anything they would still have the effect of mentioned above.

Ofcourse this change would require to lower the rof of the german sniper and lower damage output of the G43.


Umm, before soviet sniper will take another shot, german sniper will fire 3 times.
I suppose that means german sniper should be doctrinal as well?

Not to mention having sniper vs not having sniper creates extremely HUGE imbalance.
Hint:
Amis vs PE.

Don't try to fix something that isn't broken with a friggin sledgehammer, because your suggestion goes as far as redesigning the game.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Ossy
23 Feb 2014, 18:06 PM
#58
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Posts: 42

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Feb 2014, 17:59 PMKatitof


Umm, before soviet sniper will take another shot, german sniper will fire 3 times.
I suppose that means german sniper should be doctrinal as well?

Not to mention having sniper vs not having sniper creates extremely HUGE imbalance.
Hint:
Amis vs PE.

Don't try to fix something that isn't broken with a friggin sledgehammer, because your suggestion goes as far as redesigning the game.


Katitof, read my post entirely. I mentioned a rof reduction for the german sniper in case the soviet sniper would be doctrinal.
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Katitof
23 Feb 2014, 19:29 PM
#59
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jump backJump back to quoted post23 Feb 2014, 18:06 PMOssy


Katitof, read my post entirely. I mentioned a rof reduction for the german sniper in case the soviet sniper would be doctrinal.

I know.
But it doesn't change a single word from my response as all my points still stand.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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KyleAkira
23 Feb 2014, 19:46 PM
#60
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Posts: 410

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Feb 2014, 17:59 PMKatitof


Umm, before soviet sniper will take another shot, german sniper will fire 3 times.
I suppose that means german sniper should be doctrinal as well?

Not to mention having sniper vs not having sniper creates extremely HUGE imbalance.
Hint:
Amis vs PE.

Don't try to fix something that isn't broken with a friggin sledgehammer, because your suggestion goes as far as redesigning the game.


PE Scout car or Armored car could kill an american sniper in less than 1 second, even on retreat...
Ostheer Scout car have cammo detection but it's damage against snipers is bad.
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