What is up with the pzkpfw V Panther ?

To the guys who go for Brummbär, esp. in team games, I want to ask: why?

From my experience, the Ostwind is more effective and efficient in dealing with infantry.

-it can shoot from better range
-it is more consistent in its effect (the Brummbär is very random in if it kills several guys at once or just one guy, and you wait very long between each shot)
-it is better on its own against infantry (one time my infantry had to retreat to base and my Brummbär was still in the middle; a conscript squad threw an anti tank grenade and the last remaining guy of the squad was constantly walking in circles around the Brummbär, it was rotating too slowly to get to shoot again; this went on for ages and he nearly destroyed the whole thing)
-it can shoot down planes (the only way to minimize the effect of the Sturmovik at least somewhat, so I find it is nearly a necessity to go for Ostwind either way)
-it is cheaper

Ok, the Brummbär has more armor and health in return, but all in all I don't think that it makes up for the other arguments.

As far as Soviets go, there is a new doctrinal ability for the upcoming 'Tank Hunters' doctrine:

RPG-40 assault: Multiple RPG-40s are thrown at a tank. I'm speculating that it's basically like the assault grenadiers' ability except with tanks. If all AT nades connect, it will probably do a guaranteed damaged engine or engine critical for heavy tanks.

I also speculate that it will cost a good bundle of munitions, and more than 60 Munis.

http://imgur.com/ZhFprP3

There is also an IL-2 anti-tank bomb strike, engineer salvage kit, PPSHs, mines

The 'overwhelming Armor' doctrine may be of use, as it has 'elite T-34/85s'. I am guessing that it is the soviet version of the tiger ace.

To the guys who go for Brummbär, esp. in team games, I want to ask: why?

From my experience, the Ostwind is more effective and efficient in dealing with infantry.

-it can shoot from better range
-it is more consistent in its effect (the Brummbär is very random in if it kills several guys at once or just one guy, and you wait very long between each shot)
-it is better on its own against infantry (one time my infantry had to retreat to base and my Brummbär was still in the middle; a conscript squad threw an anti tank grenade and the last remaining guy of the squad was constantly walking in circles around the Brummbär, it was rotating too slowly to get to shoot again; this went on for ages and he nearly destroyed the whole thing)
-it can shoot down planes (the only way to minimize the effect of the Sturmovik at least somewhat, so I find it is nearly a necessity to go for Ostwind either way)
-it is cheaper

Ok, the Brummbär has more armor and health in return, but all in all I don't think that it makes up for the other arguments.

Because Brummbar is pretty effective against Soviet tanks and clears weapon teams with one shoot as well

This analysis shows nothing ... Yes a quick tech sov build is cheaper than a slow tech ost build. So you think a sov player is going to hold out without hmgs, mortars, zis, or expensive infantry call ins, etc but will be able to fight off German t2 (without Molotov and at nades mind you)? And will then be able to turn the tide with a single su85 with no support? He may have a chance if the panther driver hits a tree cause he's too busy laughing at the su85 as he circle strafes it as the cons wave at it since they don't have at nades

It shows that the soviet player has extra manpower for exactly those things you mention. I never claimed that the Soviet armor had no support, simply that the soviet has a manpower advantage when it comes to tech. Use that knowledge to your advantage. If you're worried about the Panther circle strafing you, keep your Cons in front of the SU-85 for AT grenades, lay mines, and have a Zis or Guard squad ready. The AT options are many.

Not sure if you read both my posts----->

That being said, with Molotovs and AT Grenade upgrades added to the above mention costs, the difference changes to 535 MP advantage for Soviets and a 20 Fuel advantage for Ostheer.

-Double Post-

Throwing some ideas here:

Penal Battalions: upgradable Shreck/Zookas or what contextual/historical accurate AT, unlockable after T3/T4.

Panther: reduce a bit max speed obtained while Blitz. Remove MG gunner upgrade, replace with spotting scope.

Soviets have fantastic AT (Germans do too). Just AT nade everything then finish off with Zis, T34s, or Su85s. Pretty simple.

Soviets have fantastic AT (Germans do too). Just AT nade everything then finish off with Zis, T34s, or Su85s. Pretty simple.

And if conscripts équiped with AT nades aren't in my build order?? And if At nade fails to disable (as it does quite often(wich is not the case of Panzerfaust))?

And if conscripts équiped with AT nades aren't in my build order?? And if At nade fails to disable (as it does quite often(wich is not the case of Panzerfaust))?

If AT nade fails on multiple squads, Button fails, mines fail, Zis fails...then yeah, you might have a problem.

And if conscripts équiped with AT nades aren't in my build order?? And if At nade fails to disable (as it does quite often(wich is not the case of Panzerfaust))?

How are conscripts not in your build order? You can still build them later in the game if you don't get them early.

How are conscripts not in your build order? You can still build them later in the game if you don't get them early.

he means the at nade upgrade at hq...

molotov and at nade upgrade costs are pretty hefty

Soviets have fantastic AT (Germans do too). Just AT nade everything then finish off with Zis, T34s, or Su85s. Pretty simple.

Please listen to this man, he talks sense.

Throwing some ideas here:

Penal Battalions: upgradable Shreck/Zookas or what contextual/historical accurate AT, unlockable after T3/T4.

Panther: reduce a bit max speed obtained while Blitz. Remove MG gunner upgrade, replace with spotting scope.

The last thing we need is some omnirole 1337 infantry.

That must be why we see it almost every game.

Oh wait, last time I've faced ISU was back in november!

Last time where I thought "oh crap, I'd love to have ISU now" was before IS-2 T34/85 buffs.

You dont play many teamgames do you? Because in teamgames the ISU is still frequent. Perhaps not a no brainier, but still used.

Other then that, Panther works as is. With some good defensive lines, at nades, mines and overlapping AT fire, they go down quite fast.

You dont play many teamgames do you? Because in teamgames the ISU is still frequent. Perhaps not a no brainier, but still used.

Other then that, Panther works as is. With some good defensive lines, at nades, mines and overlapping AT fire, they go down quite fast.

If by 'team games' you mean 4v4, then no, I don't.
Most of my games are 2v2. And last time I've used ISU I've really regret it. Its too slow, too expensive and too fragile for me to ever build it again. Others might like it, but I see no reason to get it over KV-2 or IS-2.

Please listen to this man, he talks sense.



The last thing we need is some omnirole 1337 infantry.

while he does makes sense, he is not addressing the problem.

I can say that the germans have fantastic artillery options, stop running into soviet lines with ur panthers and just hit them with panzerwerfers/mortar HT instead, pretty simple. <- this logic wins games, same as his.

but no, panthers are a good deterrent to soviet armour, they destroy every single piece out there and can give the is2 quite a beating even though it is outclassed by the is2, both in history as well as well reflected in the difference in cost in the game. the amount of security panthers give are huge and will always show up in games, especially in 2v2s.

soviet AT fairly situational. maps like pripyat favours defensive lines and artillery combat it makes breakthrough tanks really hard to do their job well. where as long range AT guns and su85 are king, combined with maxims and katyushas, its a difficult line to crack.

but in other wider maps like moscow outskirts, these maps favour mobility and provide good flanking opportunities which german armour can exploit. which bring us to the real problem at hand, what can stop a panther in good hands from executing an effective flank in those conditions? there's mines definitely, but the main brunt of the AT work is done by AT guns and su85 which are horribly slow, clumsy but pack a good punch when in position.

moving these things into positions are difficult, compared to driving a panther right beside them. once these things are displaced and they often are, there is nothing stopping a panther from going after them. AT nades can be bounced off, nothing wrong with that. AT guns are slower than slow and easily driven pass. mines rely somewhat on luck, if the panther takes an unexpected route, it can bypass mines. their tiny cone of fire means they cannot fire back while german armour have a turret to keep their guns on them and there is nothing more effective than shooting at something that cannot fire back. su85 have already reverse and traverse speed severely reduced and rightfully so, so when caught out of position, there is nothing saving them from panthers.

of course there is the is2 which is doctrinal, but even the is2 needs a good amount of support to go against panthers, nothing wrong with that. then there's the t34/85s, which are less than a match for panthers but great to defend the flanks against them. there is the isu152, suffering the same issues as su85s though they have a longer range to protect themselves. lastly, our t34/76 which has questionable penetration values against the panther and when they do, 120dmg is a small % of 960. sadly, all of these AT support units share the same trait, they are all TANKS which is what the panther are going to counter in the 1st place. meaning that there is a good chance these AT support are going to get destroyed/heavily crippled before AT guns/su85 can move into position.

im sure link0 is a great player, i played against him and got smashed to bits. but stop taking his words as gold and expect all soviet player to play flawlessly for every game and expect all panthers to have their engine damaged on the 1st AT nade, every panther to run over mines and every su85/AT guns flawlessly sited.

Panthers are nice and very strong tanks for they price. I can live with this.

while he does makes sense, he is not addressing the problem.

I can say that the germans have fantastic artillery options, stop running into soviet lines with ur panthers and just hit them with panzerwerfers/mortar HT instead, pretty simple. <- this logic wins games, same as his.

but no, panthers are a good deterrent to soviet armour, they destroy every single piece out there and can give the is2 quite a beating even though it is outclassed by the is2, both in history as well as well reflected in the difference in cost in the game. the amount of security panthers give are huge and will always show up in games, especially in 2v2s.

soviet AT fairly situational. maps like pripyat favours defensive lines and artillery combat it makes breakthrough tanks really hard to do their job well. where as long range AT guns and su85 are king, combined with maxims and katyushas, its a difficult line to crack.

but in other wider maps like moscow outskirts, these maps favour mobility and provide good flanking opportunities which german armour can exploit. which bring us to the real problem at hand, what can stop a panther in good hands from executing an effective flank in those conditions? there's mines definitely, but the main brunt of the AT work is done by AT guns and su85 which are horribly slow, clumsy but pack a good punch when in position.

moving these things into positions are difficult, compared to driving a panther right beside them. once these things are displaced and they often are, there is nothing stopping a panther from going after them. AT nades can be bounced off, nothing wrong with that. AT guns are slower than slow and easily driven pass. mines rely somewhat on luck, if the panther takes an unexpected route, it can bypass mines. their tiny cone of fire means they cannot fire back while german armour have a turret to keep their guns on them and there is nothing more effective than shooting at something that cannot fire back. su85 have already reverse and traverse speed severely reduced and rightfully so, so when caught out of position, there is nothing saving them from panthers.

of course there is the is2 which is doctrinal, but even the is2 needs a good amount of support to go against panthers, nothing wrong with that. then there's the t34/85s, which are less than a match for panthers but great to defend the flanks against them. there is the isu152, suffering the same issues as su85s though they have a longer range to protect themselves. lastly, our t34/76 which has questionable penetration values against the panther and when they do, 120dmg is a small % of 960. sadly, all of these AT support units share the same trait, they are all TANKS which is what the panther are going to counter in the 1st place. meaning that there is a good chance these AT support are going to get destroyed/heavily crippled before AT guns/su85 can move into position.

im sure link0 is a great player, i played against him and got smashed to bits. but stop taking his words as gold and expect all soviet player to play flawlessly for every game and expect all panthers to have their engine damaged on the 1st AT nade, every panther to run over mines and every su85/AT guns flawlessly sited.

I still fail to see where the problem is. The Panther is a dedicated Anti-Armour Tank you can run circles around it with infantry often without losing a single model.

You named it, if your positioning is bad the Panther will just run through everything but that's a matter of skill, not imbalance.

It's not that hard to immobilize a Tank when you have access to ram, button, cheap mines and "lock-on" orrah AT-Nades. That will buy you the time you need to align your AT.

I formyself rarley have trouble against Panthers, and when I do it's because my opponent is just better skilled than I am.

I personally believe that the panther is fine in it's current state. The Ostheer needs a strong, flexible and reliable tank that can take on heavy soviet armor. The soviets themselves have plenty of decent counters to panthers that being out-ranging them using SU-85s, IS-2s don't do a bad job against them and ZIS guns as well can lay in the damage. Also Soviets can lay a ton of 30 munition mines that could cover all the possible flank routes that an aggressive panther might take. Other useful abilities that can tackle panthers include at-grenades, button, mark target and ramming.

The key way to defeat the panther is to disable it's maneuverability by giving it a damaged engine. Once you have done that it becomes very easy to finish off.

I still fail to see where the problem is. The Panther is a dedicated Anti-Armour Tank you can run circles around it with infantry often without losing a single model.

You named it, if your positioning is bad the Panther will just run through everything but that's a matter of skill, not imbalance.

It's not that hard to immobilize a Tank when you have access to ram, button, cheap mines and "lock-on" orrah AT-Nades. That will buy you the time you need to align your AT.

I formyself rarley have trouble against Panthers, and when I do it's because my opponent is just better skilled than I am.

Being on both ends I'd say the Problem with Panthers is the ability to flank defensive positions almost effortlessly especially with Vet1 ability. I'd like to see this changed as its too easy right now.
The other issue is how Blitz itself changes this tank making it almost invincible. When I'm playing Soviet I'm really glad that majority of German players don't utilise this

Being on both ends I'd say the Problem with Panthers is the ability to flank defensive positions almost effortlessly especially with Vet1 ability. I'd like to see this changed as its too easy right now.
The other issue is how Blitz itself changes this tank making it almost invincible. When I'm playing Soviet I'm really glad that majority of German players don't utilise this

Again, blitz can be stopped with engine damage. Afraid of being flanked? Lay mines, place conscripts far out, use guards. Panthers are hard to kill that's the point. They also don't start with blitz (except Elite which is OP), so you always have a warning. Soviet late game requires you to used combined arms. Panther is by design made to go in unsupported and destroy Soviet armor. Even in large team games where players build many Panthers, AS LONG AS THE TEAMS ARE FAIR, I have no problems with Panthers. Good tanks yes, but not insta win button. When teams are unfair then it can feel overwhelming as you struggle to destroy Panthers and they dominate your allies flanks.

Also once you damage a tanks engine, don't forget to use your more common artillery to harass the tank as it retreats. You can continue to damage it and any repairing Pio's that come by. Soviet snipers in the late game cloaked behind the lines make it very hard for ost. Calling in very accurate long range fire.

TLDR: Panthers are fine as is, if you are struggling to defeat them try using strategies that involve damaging engines.