I havent seen any threads lately addressing what i feel are the two most overpriced infantry units in game. It seems the current threads are only focusing on early shocks early guards or elite forces.
When assaukt grens were first released these were a menance. But this was before the change in starting resources.
Assgrens are really only good against conscripts. Even Penals can counter them and they dont scale well.
I think they should be lowered to say 280 manpower. They do not perform anywhere near Pgrens yet they cost nearly as much.
And lets not forget good old Penals. They come in a building designed for AI. They cost as much as Pgrens yet perform a little betrer than LMG grens even with the flamer.
I think they should be lowered to about 320 Manpower or have thier dps increased to Pgrens level of AI.
Since Penals come sooner and benefit from merge i dont think their performance shoukd be increased. So i personally would prefer a cost decrease.
Penal Battalions and Assault Grenadiers
19 Jan 2014, 19:37 PM
#1
Posts: 1637
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
19 Jan 2014, 20:30 PM
#2
Posts: 254
hmm.. assgrens are fine imo i still think they are a menace. for penals i think a small reduction in cost could be in order.
20 Jan 2014, 13:48 PM
#3
Posts: 503
Permanently BannedThe grenades of the ass. grens sometimes dont kill any or just 1, and exploding in the foot of the enemy, need fix it...
20 Jan 2014, 14:12 PM
#4
Posts: 4928
I agree with a cost reduction for Assault Grenadiers, they're good but they're not great. They're above average at fighting Infantry, but it comes at the cost of completely lacking AT support, not even a Faustpatrone to scare clown cars!
Side-note, why didn't they call them Sturmgrenadiers? It's better in every way.
Side-note, why didn't they call them Sturmgrenadiers? It's better in every way.
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII
> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
20 Jan 2014, 17:37 PM
#5
Posts: 647
i dont think every infantry in game should get a vehicle snaring ability.
assault grenadiers are out done in every way by pgrens which is non doctrinal and I think they are a needless addition to the german army.
they come too early so they cannot be too powerful, making them fairly useless late game due to lack of scaling. make them come 1cp later and no one will bother about them because pzgrens are already hitting the field. buff them and they will screw early game balance against conscripts. make them cheaper and they are still a bad investment since they cannot protect themselves from vehicles.
so yea, where do they actually fit?
assault grenadiers are out done in every way by pgrens which is non doctrinal and I think they are a needless addition to the german army.
they come too early so they cannot be too powerful, making them fairly useless late game due to lack of scaling. make them come 1cp later and no one will bother about them because pzgrens are already hitting the field. buff them and they will screw early game balance against conscripts. make them cheaper and they are still a bad investment since they cannot protect themselves from vehicles.
so yea, where do they actually fit?
20 Jan 2014, 18:44 PM
#6
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
i dont think every infantry in game should get a vehicle snaring ability.
assault grenadiers are out done in every way by pgrens which is non doctrinal and I think they are a needless addition to the german army.
they come too early so they cannot be too powerful, making them fairly useless late game due to lack of scaling. make them come 1cp later and no one will bother about them because pzgrens are already hitting the field. buff them and they will screw early game balance against conscripts. make them cheaper and they are still a bad investment since they cannot protect themselves from vehicles.
so yea, where do they actually fit?
This is a valid point. The attempt to fit everything in by DLC so it can be charged for has resulted in units that have no place. Since they won't go away they do need some help though; so we can't let the problem go...sadly. If I could have it my way I would either remove them or buff them significantly and place them at 2 cp's, or possibly even 3, but that would defeat the purpose of the commander.
30 Jan 2014, 23:24 PM
#7
Posts: 15
Penals need an armor buff to 1.5 if they're ever going to be remotely useful as a flamethrower shock unit :/
I mean they can't even throw a satchel at one pg squad
I mean they can't even throw a satchel at one pg squad
30 Jan 2014, 23:39 PM
#8
Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13
I mean they can't even throw a satchel at one pg squad
Penals honestly shouldn't be throwing a short-range satchel against an assault unit that excels at killing enemy infantry.
They're in this weird role of being long-ranged infantry, but they have a flamethrower on top of being both expensive and squishy.
31 Jan 2014, 00:24 AM
#9
Posts: 15
31 Jan 2014, 01:04 AM
#10
Posts: 1571
I would like to see Penals radically redesigned into something like a weaker version of Assault grenadiers w/special abilities.
So say a 4 man squad with 4 x PPSH. Armor remains @ 1 so they are weak like engineers. The unit is designed to attack tanks with AT grenades or drop satchels. Up-gradable with the flamethrower.
Price? maybe 280 MP
===============
As far as the actual penals themselves, I find that they work best when placed in a 'clown car'. The clown car protects them, and they get to put their long ranged rifles and their flamethrowers to use.
So if you want a flamer clowncar with more firepower, you get the penals. And of course, you can satchel things and have the advantage of getting there fast.
So say a 4 man squad with 4 x PPSH. Armor remains @ 1 so they are weak like engineers. The unit is designed to attack tanks with AT grenades or drop satchels. Up-gradable with the flamethrower.
Price? maybe 280 MP
===============
As far as the actual penals themselves, I find that they work best when placed in a 'clown car'. The clown car protects them, and they get to put their long ranged rifles and their flamethrowers to use.
So if you want a flamer clowncar with more firepower, you get the penals. And of course, you can satchel things and have the advantage of getting there fast.
31 Jan 2014, 02:05 AM
#11
Posts: 95
Penals are not meant to be an assault unit. I think an armor upgrade makes more sense than anything. This way they have even better survivability when posted behind cover. Only bother with the flamer upgrade if the opponent is pgren heavy. Satchel charges should really only be used against things with long set-up times or in buildings only.
I would prefer an armor upgrade over a cost decrease. A cost decrease would likely make them too effective IMO. Although they are fairly cost effective if you are conscientious about merging. An armor upgrade would actually justify paying a bit more in reinforcement cost rather than merging.
I would prefer an armor upgrade over a cost decrease. A cost decrease would likely make them too effective IMO. Although they are fairly cost effective if you are conscientious about merging. An armor upgrade would actually justify paying a bit more in reinforcement cost rather than merging.
31 Jan 2014, 02:39 AM
#12
Posts: 4928
Why do you say they're not an assault unit? They have better rifles, a flamethrower upgrade, and can throw a goddamn demo charge. I'd say that makes them pretty combat oriented, moreso than Conscripts.
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII
> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
31 Jan 2014, 09:50 AM
#13
Posts: 688
Penals would be allright IMO if only they didn't have the serious flaw, that they have no way other than a full retreat, to avoid big damage from their own satchel.
I think they should have a brief fire-up or something when the satchel ability is activated. In order to make a soft retreat an option after satchel.
Apart from that it's true what has been said above about the contradiction that it is a long-range unit equipped with short range specialty weapons.
But try seing it as a feature rather than a problem. I think we're getting too conventional here, expecting each unit to be clearly either AI or AT, either short or long range etc.
I appreciate that the game leaves room for creative strategy but mixing odd abilities.
We don't want all strategies to be Zerg-rushes, do we?
I think they should have a brief fire-up or something when the satchel ability is activated. In order to make a soft retreat an option after satchel.
Apart from that it's true what has been said above about the contradiction that it is a long-range unit equipped with short range specialty weapons.
But try seing it as a feature rather than a problem. I think we're getting too conventional here, expecting each unit to be clearly either AI or AT, either short or long range etc.
I appreciate that the game leaves room for creative strategy but mixing odd abilities.
We don't want all strategies to be Zerg-rushes, do we?
'There's honour in victory, honour in defeat and honour in just staying alive'.
[Quote from Wings Reel]
[Quote from Wings Reel]
31 Jan 2014, 10:19 AM
#14
Posts: 15
The problem is that there is nothing about this unit that justifies its cost. The dps bonus from the SVT40s is negligible - you're better off getting two scripts for 480 than one penal squad for 360 (the two squads will give you more capping power, twice the effective hp, i.e. staying power, and more dps). You're better off using flamethrowers on your engies and the satchel is a sad excuse for an explosive device in most cases - bunkers and caches are not destroyed by them.
An armor buff to equal the armor of grens and pgrens would make this unit slightly more viable consequently making it an early non-doctrinal counter to Ostheer infantry blobs (something I've been encountering a lot more often since the tank scatter increase).
An armor buff to equal the armor of grens and pgrens would make this unit slightly more viable consequently making it an early non-doctrinal counter to Ostheer infantry blobs (something I've been encountering a lot more often since the tank scatter increase).
31 Jan 2014, 10:37 AM
#15
2 Posts: 101
The satchel charge is epic. Penals are just strong enough to be able to run into gun fire and start flaming grens(unlike engineers).
31 Jan 2014, 10:44 AM
#16
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
The satchel charge is epic. Penals are just strong enough to be able to run into gun fire and start flaming grens(unlike engineers).
And hit retreat the moment they get in range to avoid squad wipe to LMG42/G43 grens.
I think you confused penals with shocks or guards.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
31 Jan 2014, 10:57 AM
#17
15 
Posts: 786
Assgrens are a great unit to start the game with, in most games making more than one is a big mistake tho.
They get armor bonus at vet2 so they don't scale that bad actually.
Their nade is pretty bad in most cases but is great for clearing buildings.
They get armor bonus at vet2 so they don't scale that bad actually.
Their nade is pretty bad in most cases but is great for clearing buildings.
31 Jan 2014, 11:03 AM
#18
Posts: 4928
AG's cost and nade cost need to be reduced, or the nade needs to be buffed. Using the grenades, even if you allow the full ability to go through on a stationary enemy, will kill up to 3 or 4. Yes, I get that they have MP 40's, and Shocks have 6x PPSh, yet their nade can wipe Gren squads on a good day.
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII
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31 Jan 2014, 11:25 AM
#19
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
AG's cost and nade cost need to be reduced, or the nade needs to be buffed. Using the grenades, even if you allow the full ability to go through on a stationary enemy, will kill up to 3 or 4. Yes, I get that they have MP 40's, and Shocks have 6x PPSh, yet their nade can wipe Gren squads on a good day.
Shocks nade have almost zero AoE.
To squad wipe all squad members need to hump each other hard. If you move 2 steps in any direction, shock nade will do absolutely nothing.
AGs nade on the other hand will more then likely wipe anything that is in building. No other nade can do that. Their nades also can't be completely dodged because of the area they all land in.
If thats not enough for you, shocks come later and are more expensive.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
31 Jan 2014, 12:20 PM
#20
4 Posts: 550 | Subs: 1
Penals perform ok and the armour is what makes them a good unit to merge with to save some manpower and keep a damage dealing unit on the field, it also gives merge actually a good use.
The only thing worth thinking about would be a cost decrease to 300 or 320 manpower (and maybe 7 or 8 instead of 9 population cost).
Penals have a role and are good at it, however in most scenarios they are too costly for it. Their manpower and population cost put them in the same league as elite infantry which they're not quite.
The only thing worth thinking about would be a cost decrease to 300 or 320 manpower (and maybe 7 or 8 instead of 9 population cost).
Penals have a role and are good at it, however in most scenarios they are too costly for it. Their manpower and population cost put them in the same league as elite infantry which they're not quite.
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