Why is IS2 so godly, and tiger is so shitty?

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2014, 13:19 PMwongtp

i think im close to giving up on this forum, this forum is more pro german than pro balance.

I'm with you on this. I read these forum sections less and less for that reason.

It's one constant cry for nerf of the soviet units allthough german players are in majority most of the time in automatching.

+1000 exactly the same feeling over here

The ISU-152 requires a lot of support to function properly. Germans have, unlike the soviets, plenty of main battle tank options that can engage and circle an ISU-152 and take it out in a timely fashion. This is not only do to the germans superior penetration and dps values on their main battle tanks, but also due to the ISU-152s weak side/rear armor.

The elephant on the other hand is much more difficult to take out. The soviets main tank destroyer does not have a turret and is an easy target, and their main battle tank has low penetration and DPS. Even when flanked by a T34, the elephants thick armor and massive HP ensures that you have plenty of time to take out the T34 before the elephant goes down, even when caught unsupported.

I have never had a problem taking elephants out. If you are discussing a doctrinal unit as if every Ost player will deploy it I am going to say mark target and 1 T34, done.

Or if you can't do that try guards, or failing that, try shocks with a shrek when you find one. Or if all that fails get a zis. Or use kats to pick away at it. Or, and I cannot stress this enough, place mines as you retreat. You have the munitions. Elephant with engine damage is dead. You can bomb it, you can strafe it, you can hit it with arty, and it can't move. Keep in mind you can lose 3 t34's and come out ahead when fighting an elephant.

You can beat it using only 2 su85's, going shocks, and relying on other units to bring it down. It was easy to lure the elephant into a duel with 2 su85's and use mines and bombing runs with kats to whittle away at supporting units and it. Even better the player was desperate to repair the elephant so I would stop firing arty for long periods to encourage pioneers to approach and repair then hit it with a combined strike to bleed out man power. Eventually killed it with 1 su85 shot to the front when it was low health. In addition, I knew at all times where his entire army was located since he could not leave the elephant. Elephants are hard counters to soviet camping game play approach, but relatively weak to a mobile and aggressive soviet player.

This is not really a discussion about 152 and elephant. This is about Tiger and IS2. I really don't feel either the 152 or the elephant is not filling its role well.

The elephant can be countered by at guns, but the problem with this doctrine is that it also has stuka bomb which is always used to destroy at guns. No way you can reposition at guns in time without losing one of them.

elefants in the natural habitat, are usually deep within the hostile german savannah. in this savannah, you'd find nasty surprises such as paks and mg42s, loads of pgrens/grens crawling about, sometimes a sniper or 2, waiting for the chance to get the jump on unsuspecting soviets. not sure how you teleport your AT guns in range of an elefant.

I have never had a problem taking elephants out. If you are discussing a doctrinal unit as if every Ost player will deploy it I am going to say mark target and 1 T34, done.

Or if you can't do that try guards, or failing that, try shocks with a shrek when you find one. Or if all that fails get a zis. Or use kats to pick away at it. Or, and I cannot stress this enough, place mines as you retreat. You have the munitions. Elephant with engine damage is dead. You can bomb it, you can strafe it, you can hit it with arty, and it can't move. Keep in mind you can lose 3 t34's and come out ahead when fighting an elephant.

You can beat it using only 2 su85's, going shocks, and relying on other units to bring it down. It was easy to lure the elephant into a duel with 2 su85's and use mines and bombing runs with kats to whittle away at supporting units and it. Even better the player was desperate to repair the elephant so I would stop firing arty for long periods to encourage pioneers to approach and repair then hit it with a combined strike to bleed out man power. Eventually killed it with 1 su85 shot to the front when it was low health. In addition, I knew at all times where his entire army was located since he could not leave the elephant. Elephants are hard counters to soviet camping game play approach, but relatively weak to a mobile and aggressive soviet player.

idk what you smoke, i'd like to have some of that. but okay, if you say so. rebutting this takes too much effort.

In 2v2 the best way to deal with elefant I found is to sneak a guard squad in and button the elefant. Then you or your teammate calls in the IL2 bombing strike which leaves the elefant with around 1%HP if he was full health. Then just finish it with the guard or su85

of the like 200 games or so ive played as soviets ive seen like 2 elefants. But honestly i have no idea really how to take out an elefant without use of doctrinal arty. The only reliable counter i can think of is t34/85s. And that's still a doctrinal unit

Doctrinal arty is the worst counter to Elefant there is. All they need to do is have one guy recce the arty and then stuka bombing strike. Another example of poorly thought out doctrines. Doctrines should only have one WTFPWN weapon. In the elefant doc there are 2. A similar problem can be seen with the Elite troops doc. On their own in seperate docs vet troops and Tiger Aces might be balanced ish. Instead they are both together making the doc OP as hell. In these past few days I haven't played a single game where there hasn't been an elite troops doc.

As for the forum, ever since Nullist left, it seems like the forum has been much more unbiased and threads don't result in a internet fist fight. A lot of the posts that are discussing balance are about exploits now, not the core balance.

Oh, I didn't realise he was gone. Now I can take that filter off, thx. One down, 2 to go

As for the elephant, I find it rather rare to encounter. It used to be the big trouble maker, but since the TA arrived, that's the boss you meet a lot now. I suppode the previous elephant-lovers are now sexing up the TA?

Anyway: Unlike the TA, the elephant has almost no mobility. Your best chance of a counter is smoke. Put a smoke screen on your approach and move up with guards and Zis.

It's not a perfect solution because smoke isn't fail safe (another change from COH1). You'll have to bring a number of units because one or more are going to be killed ny the elephant regardless of the smoke.

Elephant are too slow to good use of it, and the zoom with no recon is not like su85 that have a win fov...

I am one of the few players that don't make P4s....I bite the bullet and go Panther, Brumbar.

The IS-2 is definitely not OP if the German player goes T4. It costs 240 fuel and it is not cost effective when fighting German heavy armor (Tiger and Panther). A well Handled panther, which costs 95 IIRC less fuel will maul IS-2's in direct confrontation which is not a good sell for the IS-2.

If a german players insists on going T3, the IS-2 will wreak them.

The Tiger I will beat a IS-2 in a duel, no problem. The IS-2 fires too slowly and the Tiger's armor & hp is higher.

The IS-2's strength is making the Germans bleed manpower and clearing out the Pak guns. It's a bit of a mixed weapon, expensive, strong AI and blasts away medium armor but is overall not cost effective against heavy armor.

The Tiger tank ime is fine when it's the first tank you call in (and if you don't do any teching) as you can catch the soviets with their pants down.

Otherwise, they are too slow and can get ambushed pretty badly if they're too far forward. Compared to the Panthers, they are overall inferior by late game.

My preferred heavy tank combo is Panther + Brumbar (love it). I use the Brumbar to bleed manpower, destroy zis, and stun soviet tanks. The Panther kills the tanks.

Oh, I didn't realise he was gone. Now I can take that filter off, thx. One down, 2 to go

As for the elephant, I find it rather rare to encounter. It used to be the big trouble maker, but since the TA arrived, that's the boss you meet a lot now. I suppode the previous elephant-lovers are now sexing up the TA?

Anyway: Unlike the TA, the elephant has almost no mobility. Your best chance of a counter is smoke. Put a smoke screen on your approach and move up with guards and Zis.

It's not a perfect solution because smoke isn't fail safe (another change from COH1). You'll have to bring a number of units because one or more are going to be killed ny the elephant regardless of the smoke.

there isnt much problems when approaching the elefants, problem for me is taking it out. soviets are too ill equipped to deal with the toughness of elefants. even when caught out of position, they can reverse back into reinforcements and repairs.

so far, the best for me is to bust its engine then take it out with bombing runs. although it is slow, its not THAT slow to get caught by a full on hit by a bombing run, bombing run comes even slower.

as for IS2, i think its relatively OP because of its 1 shot wipe potential, they could change how vehicles engage infantry, reduce scatter and AOE but make infantry take low but definite damage from outer radius of AOE, maybe 15 per model. but a full damage if it was a direct hit. could make things a little more consistent.

Also, the '2 tiger' tactic isn't as potent as it seems compared to 1 panther and 1 brumbar with another heavy tank or rocket carrier coming.

It takes half your pop cap, and the slow tigers are meatshields without the shoot & scoot shock effect of the brumbar (vs infantry) and panther (vs armor). While you can use the Panther/Brumbar alone, with tigers you really need the rocket carrier to help with the inadequate AI.

So you have 2 tigers that can only do well if they're fighting t-34s or lower. A good player can kite tigers with their SU-85s and force them to retreat or leave. or destroy them.

So you have 2 tigers that can only do well if they're fighting t-34s or lower. A good player can kite tigers with their SU-85s and force them to retreat or leave. or destroy them.

That is no longer possible. you need to sight at least 1 su-85 for kiting making it death meat to 2 tigers. if they don't use sighting then you simply will not see the tigers and heaven help you if they have vet 1.

I am one of the few players that don't make P4s....I bite the bullet and go Panther, Brumbar.

The IS-2 is definitely not OP if the German player goes T4. It costs 240 fuel and it is not cost effective when fighting German heavy armor (Tiger and Panther). A well Handled panther, which costs 95 IIRC less fuel will maul IS-2's in direct confrontation which is not a good sell for the IS-2.

If a german players insists on going T3, the IS-2 will wreak them.

The Tiger I will beat a IS-2 in a duel, no problem. The IS-2 fires too slowly and the Tiger's armor & hp is higher.

The IS-2's strength is making the Germans bleed manpower and clearing out the Pak guns. It's a bit of a mixed weapon, expensive, strong AI and blasts away medium armor but is overall not cost effective against heavy armor.

The Tiger tank ime is fine when it's the first tank you call in (and if you don't do any teching) as you can catch the soviets with their pants down.

Otherwise, they are too slow and can get ambushed pretty badly if they're too far forward. Compared to the Panthers, they are overall inferior by late game.

My preferred heavy tank combo is Panther + Brumbar (love it). I use the Brumbar to bleed manpower, destroy zis, and stun soviet tanks. The Panther kills the tanks.

Is this for 1v1 or 2v2+ ?

Yea i give up on p4. It can be beat by t34 and has lackluster anti infantry capability. If Im desperate for anti tank Ill go stug. If I can hold out longer then ill go t4. P4s are supposed to be generalist, but it doesn't do that well in at or ai roles.

The only problem I have with IS-2s is that they can oneshot Paks.

If the German player didn´t go T4 his only chance to win is a Tiger. StuGs aren´t that great as they get two-shot by the IS-2. However if you go T2 and even T3 heavy as German and think you have enough AT, you will have heavy trouble versus an IS-2.

Tigers on the other hand have to retreat when facing ZIS guns.

Speaking strictly for 1v1:

The IS2 is a perfect example how a lategame heavy tank should work.
It ought to result in an "Oh shit!" moment for the opponent scrambling all available AT to form a defense. Well, at least that's my reaction when playing as Ostheer.

I do think the oneshotting of infantry units and PAKs is terrible - but unfortunately a that's quite common in CoH2 for units with 4 or less entities so I guess the IS2 is in tune with the general CoH2 theme.



When I see a tiger trundling onto the field it doesn't invoke the same reaction.
Personally I think of the tiger as a tougher but slower panther that's slightly more effective at sniping infantry.
Fighting a tiger can certainly be annoying even frustrating as some soviet AT counters suddenly turn out to be heavily RNG dependant no matter the attack angle...



I don't know how to describe it accurately, but to me the tiger doesn't really feel unique.
The IS2 does.





EDIT:
@coh2player
I'd also like to know if your post was describing you to 1v1s or 2v2+s games.
Thanks!

I use the same principles when it's 1 v 1 or even 4 v 4 although the resources I have and losses I suffered may be different.

So with lower resource situations, I buy Panther, Brumbar or Brumbar, Panther. In higher resource situations I aim at getting: Panther, Brumbar, Panther, rocket carrier. The idea is to always have 1 panther, 1 brumbar at least and bind them to 1 and 2.

With Tigers, it's Tiger, Tiger, rocket carrier at most.

I like using luftwaffe supply doctrine to get extra fuel.

--------------

What I don't like about the Tiger is its slowness and difficulty in getting out of ambushes. By the time you get out, the Tiger usually has lost a good chunk of its HP.

IF the other player knows that you have a tiger: Typically with 1 tiger you get attacked by a pair of Zis, 1 SU-85 firing with focus forward, and conscripts with AT nades. Or 2-3 zis and conscripts with AT nades.

The Panther, on the other hand, can quickly get out the line of fire (preferably with blitz or smoke) to flank the SU and avoid the Zis guns. The Brumbar can quickly 2 shot Zis and infantry & can stun tanks for 5 seconds.

I think perhaps the issue is that people do not use the Tiger correctly. In essence the IS2 and Tiger have the same role - bleeding the opponent, however they differ in how they achieve this massively.

The IS2 is more of a ninja hit and run unit due to it's slow rate of fire. It is a lot easier to lose your IS2 if you over extend with it/get flanked. A few shrek barrages supported by a Pak and it's usually goodnight IS2.

Also a damaged engine is more of a death sentence for an IS2 than a Tiger. A lone P4 can beat an IS2 with a damaged engine.


With the Tiger you have to support it with other units. The best results I've had with it is to support your Tiger with another armor piece, a Pak and a shrek PGren squad (and of course Grens to screen and prevent ramming).

The Tiger can take a lot of punishment but use it conservatively initially (behind shot blockers etc) and snipe away at the enemy units, until you get blitz. When you get this you can use it with flanking P4's and infantry to smash your enemies defences when the time is right

My main issue with the Tiger is that it's just so ubiquitous; it feels like half the German commanders have it, whereas the IS-2 is limited to just two Soviet commanders.

If the Soviet heavies were more common then I think German players would start to fear them a bit more, whereas German heavies are too common and so I find that people frequently just use a couple of Panzer IVs to support infantry and hold off until 9 CP rolls around.

I think the Tiger needs a slight fuel increase (225?), and hopefully once we get some more units added to the game then one of the existing commander loadouts can have the King Tiger or perhaps the Jagdpanther in place of a Tiger.

I am one of the few players that don't make P4s....I bite the bullet and go Panther, Brumbar.

The IS-2 is definitely not OP if the German player goes T4. It costs 240 fuel and it is not cost effective when fighting German heavy armor (Tiger and Panther). A well Handled panther, which costs 95 IIRC less fuel will maul IS-2's in direct confrontation which is not a good sell for the IS-2.

If a german players insists on going T3, the IS-2 will wreak them.

The Tiger I will beat a IS-2 in a duel, no problem. The IS-2 fires too slowly and the Tiger's armor & hp is higher.

The IS-2's strength is making the Germans bleed manpower and clearing out the Pak guns. It's a bit of a mixed weapon, expensive, strong AI and blasts away medium armor but is overall not cost effective against heavy armor.

The Tiger tank ime is fine when it's the first tank you call in (and if you don't do any teching) as you can catch the soviets with their pants down.

Otherwise, they are too slow and can get ambushed pretty badly if they're too far forward. Compared to the Panthers, they are overall inferior by late game.

My preferred heavy tank combo is Panther + Brumbar (love it). I use the Brumbar to bleed manpower, destroy zis, and stun soviet tanks. The Panther kills the tanks.

+1 I do the same. I have found that a supported brumbar can take on all Soviet medium tanks. And i follow it with a Panther. I like having AT nade and Ram bouncing tanks. And god help tue Soviet player when you get vet 2....