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Soviet Industry needs to be nerfed.

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3 Dec 2013, 22:48 PM
#41
avatar of DietBrownie

Posts: 308

Sega and Relic are literally repeating Capcom's mistakes. Capcom did the same exact thing with street fighter 4 and Marvel vs Capcom 3 and now look at Capcom. An industry giant in the past now only has 152 million dollars in the bank. This occurred due to they lost their dedicated player base after milking their consumers. Capcom lost a lot of players, I mean a lot of players, not thousands, but hundreds of thousands. Capcom did earn a small amount of money through this but they sure as hell lost a shit ton in log term.


If you really think they care about the playerbase and making sure the news commanders aren't pay to win. You're Wrong. Only half of those commanders were somewhat balanced. Industry needed a hotfix nerf but they realized that it would hurt sales, so they didn't include it in the hotfix.

Oh well, at-least they updated company of heroes 1
3 Dec 2013, 22:49 PM
#42
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

Stephenn is an anomaly in the ranking, as his W/L% is actually substantially lower than others on the ladder.

This is due, to his credit, to his ability to beat higher W/L players consistently EVEN THOUGH he often tries unorthodox builds which sometimes invariably end in defeat.

Nonetheless, and especially because of that, his place on the ladder is particularly deserved.

Salute to Stephenn. And your post-game strat analysis are good as gold.

That's because leader boards are a innacurate representation of skill. While those who top the leader boards are obviously some of the greatest players. Those that stay on the top are usually there because they are absolutely anal about winning. This usually means they employ proven strategies so they can maximize their win/loss ratio and in some cases, means they can be beaten by lower rank player who uses a strategy that's different from the norm. Which means a lower rank player could patentially be better then a higher ranked opponent.

This is generally why I hate leader boards, as well as the "My opinion is better then yours because my rank is higher" bullshit.
4 Dec 2013, 01:03 AM
#43
avatar of IpKaiFung
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1708 | Subs: 2

Sega and Relic are literally repeating Capcom's mistakes. Capcom did the same exact thing with street fighter 4 and Marvel vs Capcom 3 and now look at Capcom. An industry giant in the past now only has 152 million dollars in the bank. This occurred due to they lost their dedicated player base after milking their consumers. Capcom lost a lot of players, I mean a lot of players, not thousands, but hundreds of thousands. Capcom did earn a small amount of money through this but they sure as hell lost a shit ton in log term.


If you really think they care about the playerbase and making sure the news commanders aren't pay to win. You're Wrong. Only half of those commanders were somewhat balanced. Industry needed a hotfix nerf but they realized that it would hurt sales, so they didn't include it in the hotfix.

Oh well, at-least they updated company of heroes 1


Firstly read this. Capcom arent going away any time soon.

Secondly I didn't have to buy the equivalent of 4 new characters every month with SF4, MvC3 or SFxT.

Finally where's your proof that they those games you mentioned are losing players, online maybe but offline where it really counts it's only getting stronger.
4 Dec 2013, 10:47 AM
#44
avatar of Paranoia

Posts: 93

Relic is not Capcon - this player base is minute and relic is chasing the old fan base away. Thank god they are at least doing something nice and updating COH1
4 Dec 2013, 11:53 AM
#45
avatar of VulvaBoy

Posts: 4

Hi. First post, long time lurker. The problem i find with SI at the moment is when i see the biatch at the loading screen i always go 3 grens take nearest fuel point t2+2paks ASAP to counter the t70+t34s and then some pgrens. The problem comes when they didnt choose that commander but went with shocks instead, so there i am sitting protecting a fuel point with paks and grens when shocks show up...yay just wasted alot of Mp on paks when i normally would have gone for a few snipers or fast ostwind or flame ht. Its a sticky situation to know if a 4-5min t70 is coming or not. if i dont build paks before t70s i loose all map and its a uphill battle and i probobly loose. but if i can manage with the first t-70s or t34s i usually win the game against similar skill player. I usually build a 3-4 paks with 1 or 2 ostwinds and later an Elephant for the win. I dont own that commander myself so i havent tested it myself.

http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198004368246

4 Dec 2013, 15:00 PM
#46
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

Just having it in your loadout confers a strategic advantage before the first second of the match.
5 Dec 2013, 10:06 AM
#47
avatar of cataclaw

Posts: 523

There is a systemic problem with DLC Commanders.

It means everytime more Commanders are launched, the baseline balance, even including previous DLC Commanders which have hopefully beem balanced by then, is thrown into imbalance yet again.

Imagine this game with 20-50-100 DLC Commanders available.
How is that possible to balance? Who the hell can balance 50 different Commander options, many of which with unique abilities, against each other?

Its a balance disaster waiting to happen, and gets worse with every DLC Commander added to the pool. Every new DLC Commader means more balancing effort in order to not only align its release with previous ones and the baseline, but also to align baseline and previous Commanders to that.

I appreciate and understand trying to make money, but there is a inevitable problem with this kind of DLC program.

Sooner or later, it will become impossivble to balance the ever growing pool of DLC Commanders, against each other.

If this continues as it is now, this game will with 100% certainty become "Company of Commanders".

Its an unsustainable model, in terms of balance. Sure, you can continue to release Commanders which beat the current flavor of the month, but even that is unsustainable, because invariably you will end up with Commanders so distanced and overpowered when xompared to vanilla ones, that there will be no choice than to buy a recent DLC to be able to match it.

In the first wave, the real Balance team managed to respond with an immediate hotfix. In the second, three weeks later, still no hotfixes. Im sure the DLC are making good money in the short term, but we have been repeatedly assured that Relics plans are long term. If this continues as it has now, there will be no long term. The commu ity will be decimated to only the relstively small pool of players who buy the most recent DLC. Its like shitting in your own backyard, eventually it stacks so high that nobody wants to be there.

Having a small pool of players who buy the DLC may make sense, superficially, fiscally, but when EVERYONE ELSE leaves the game, how long are even those DLC guys going to continue buying product when there is nobody exceot other DlC buyers to play against?

This kind of business model, in a game, has clearly only one impetus. Milk the hell out of the small pool of DLC purchasers before it dries up. Balance, as I explained esrlier, is a even more distant and a lost cause, with every single DLC Commander.

If the current trend continues, at this point next year, we will have more than double the current amount of DLC Commanders we have now. Imagine that.

That is literally, to be called "Company of Commanders" at that point.


Can someone mail this to the CEO at Relic HQ? Please.
5 Dec 2013, 10:42 AM
#48
avatar of Greeb

Posts: 971



Can someone mail this to the CEO at Relic HQ? Please.


Yeah, that's the first time I've agree completely with a Nullist post XDD

That day should be remembered.
5 Dec 2013, 10:57 AM
#49
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747

There is a systemic problem with DLC Commanders.

It means everytime more Commanders are launched, the baseline balance, even including previous DLC Commanders which have hopefully beem balanced by then, is thrown into imbalance yet again.

Imagine this game with 20-50-100 DLC Commanders available.
How is that possible to balance? Who the hell can balance 50 different Commander options, many of which with unique abilities, against each other?

Its a balance disaster waiting to happen, and gets worse with every DLC Commander added to the pool. Every new DLC Commader means more balancing effort in order to not only align its release with previous ones and the baseline, but also to align baseline and previous Commanders to that.

I appreciate and understand trying to make money, but there is a inevitable problem with this kind of DLC program.

Sooner or later, it will become impossivble to balance the ever growing pool of DLC Commanders, against each other.

If this continues as it is now, this game will with 100% certainty become "Company of Commanders".

Its an unsustainable model, in terms of balance. Sure, you can continue to release Commanders which beat the current flavor of the month, but even that is unsustainable, because invariably you will end up with Commanders so distanced and overpowered when xompared to vanilla ones, that there will be no choice than to buy a recent DLC to be able to match it.

In the first wave, the real Balance team managed to respond with an immediate hotfix. In the second, three weeks later, still no hotfixes. Im sure the DLC are making good money in the short term, but we have been repeatedly assured that Relics plans are long term. If this continues as it has now, there will be no long term. The commu ity will be decimated to only the relstively small pool of players who buy the most recent DLC. Its like shitting in your own backyard, eventually it stacks so high that nobody wants to be there.

Having a small pool of players who buy the DLC may make sense, superficially, fiscally, but when EVERYONE ELSE leaves the game, how long are even those DLC guys going to continue buying product when there is nobody exceot other DlC buyers to play against?

This kind of business model, in a game, has clearly only one impetus. Milk the hell out of the small pool of DLC purchasers before it dries up. Balance, as I explained esrlier, is a even more distant and a lost cause, with every single DLC Commander.

If the current trend continues, at this point next year, we will have more than double the current amount of DLC Commanders we have now. Imagine that.

That is literally, to be called "Company of Commanders" at that point.


+1
6 Dec 2013, 15:37 PM
#50
avatar of chaindler

Posts: 9

"This is generally why I hate leader boards, as well as the "My opinion is better then yours because my rank is higher" bullshit."

Amen to this one. Arogance of some particular EXPERTS players is very shamelful.. ahh, almost forgot Music Video Game for them!!
6 Dec 2013, 19:41 PM
#51
avatar of sluzbenik

Posts: 879

It's a huge problem that commander choice can be effectively hidden until you unleash whatever uber-unit you want to. It's the same for the Tiger Ace doctrine. Ostheer is better at this because they are not as reliant on doctrinal units. If you don't use the vet ability, don't use G43s, you can basically pull a really, really huge fast one.

As the commander overlap is so insane, this is only going to get worse.

I think we're beginning to see a pattern in the DLCs though: what you want to do to save money and still be on the winning side is buy every other commander group. Ie., the new commanders should beat the last batch. Tiger Ace/Sov Ind is more powerful than the previous ones, this next batch should beat those...So if you didn't buy either, wait for these next ones then skip the next batch.

It's a very similar system to some free-to-play games, where they release new abilities and upgrades every few months, and to stay competitive you need to buy them.



6 Dec 2013, 19:52 PM
#52
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21

"This is generally why I hate leader boards, as well as the "My opinion is better then yours because my rank is higher" bullshit."

Amen to this one. Arogance of some particular EXPERTS players is very shamelful.. ahh, almost forgot Music Video Game for them!!


Speaking for myself, and not my other clanmates, I agree that Soviet Industry is a problem which needs to be solved, personally for my rank, I've only gained it through my regular "Unbeatable" Strategy three times now, I did try Soviet Industry for a short time but I honestly became bored of constantly spamming only tanks, and not relying on infantry. I haven't used Soviet Industry in 1v1 since my loss to Giap. I think the best solution to Soviet Industry would be to have it at 1 or 2 cps, as by this time the German player should be able to handle a 7 minute T-70. I also think it should either be optional to shut off Soviet Industry for a designated time period, or have the option where Soviet Industry is only active for 120-240 seconds preferably.
6 Dec 2013, 19:59 PM
#53
avatar of Pred

Posts: 35



It's a very similar system to some free-to-play games, where they release new abilities and upgrades every few months, and to stay competitive you need to buy them.



AAAAnd that is the exact problem: A full price title with a f2p/p2w dlc model.
6 Dec 2013, 20:12 PM
#54
avatar of link0

Posts: 337

Vehicle self repair should also be removed from soviet industry commander. The synergy is just too ridiculously good with mindless tank spamming.
6 Dec 2013, 20:14 PM
#55
avatar of H_Stickeye

Posts: 79

yea its not the actual commander itself that is a problem, as nullist pointed out, its the whole model of commanders.

This is why from the start I have been demanding accountability from Relic to provide a plan on how they intend the game to progress, but no response forthcoming.

So we can only assume the worst from here on, until cooler heads prevail. This is a big IF EVER, i think.
7 Dec 2013, 00:30 AM
#56
avatar of jacko

Posts: 64

Pretty sure Relic is, at this point, just trying to milk out as much cash they can for their next project, competitive play and balance be damned.
rbz
7 Dec 2013, 00:47 AM
#57
avatar of rbz

Posts: 8

@VonIvan It's not a 7 minute t70, it can be put out at 5:30 and you aren't going to be prepared for it.
7 Dec 2013, 01:20 AM
#58
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Dec 2013, 00:47 AMrbz
@VonIvan It's not a 7 minute t70, it can be put out at 5:30 and you aren't going to be prepared for it.


Not when industry only kicks in at 1-2cp, which was what he suggested.
7 Dec 2013, 03:04 AM
#59
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Dec 2013, 00:47 AMrbz
@VonIvan It's not a 7 minute t70, it can be put out at 5:30 and you aren't going to be prepared for it.


I'm talking about if it gets changed to 1-2 cps, a 7 minute t-70 is more reasonable to deal with.
7 Dec 2013, 03:04 AM
#60
avatar of Appleseed

Posts: 622

i think soviet industry is also bugged, i have seen KV2 summoned to the battlefield around 10min mark where he shouldn't have enough CP to call it in at all.
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