Soviet Industry needs to be nerfed.

If all tanks are nerfed, and there is one commander that relies more on tanks than the other commanders, then that one commander takes a bigger hit to it's effectiveness than the other commanders. It's not that hard to figure out.

That maybe true, but it still fails to fix the underlying problem Nullist has identified. Soviet armor with SI arrives on the field before Ost AT. This means that although soviet tanks may kill less infantry on retreat (which is basically what this punishes) Ost still cannot counter the early armor.

Not sure if this has been discussed, but would it nerf SI enough if T70 was vulnerable to small arms fire, so that a hard counter was not necessary if enough soft counters could be dispatched? Or what about making cheaper Ost mines?

Soviet Industry from 1CP. You cant nothing nerf or change all game ballance.

Problem solved

It's being nerfed in a very indirect way, the moving scatter penalty makes the T-70 and T-34 a lot less potent at killing infantry while on the move.

True, but it's far too little of a nerf. It needs to be smashed in the face with the nerf bat.

I would change it to 3 CP and make the exchange rate 6:1 MP:Fuel instead of 5:1. It would still be an extremely good commander.

The synergy of Tank Spam + free and easy repairs without engineers is just ridiculously good. Repair stations are easily spammable and vehicle crew repair is arguably the best ability in the game.

That maybe true, but it still fails to fix the underlying problem Nullist has identified. Soviet armor with SI arrives on the field before Ost AT. This means that although soviet tanks may kill less infantry on retreat (which is basically what this punishes) Ost still cannot counter the early armor.

Not sure if this has been discussed, but would it nerf SI enough if T70 was vulnerable to small arms fire, so that a hard counter was not necessary if enough soft counters could be dispatched? Or what about making cheaper Ost mines?

I know that historical accuracy isn't that important in this game, but small arms penetrating a T70 is a little too silly even for this game.

I know that historical accuracy isn't that important in this game, but small arms penetrating a T70 is a little too silly even for this game.

Totally agree.

I think you have to be carful changing the CP of industry, because if its too late, you force the soviet to build an army they will not be able to afford to reinforce.

I'm not sure if 1 CP would be too late in that regard. But by 1 CP you normally have about 5 inf units.

I know that historical accuracy isn't that important in this game, but small arms penetrating a T70 is a little too silly even for this game.

Not necessarily advocating a move in that direction, but for game play purposes I would take it. If you want to worry about historical accuracy a pak 40 round would not damage a t70 it would easily destroy it in a single shot. Not take up to 4 hits to kill it. Actually that is true for all of the Ost tanks and AT guns in this game. We shouldn't say historical reality does matter in on case, and then say here is where it matters.

MrJafooli, I thought the purpose of commander choosing was to have a trade off? If you planned on going SI you would have to sacrifice early infantry, or pick later and get less of an early tank boost. It still functions well to get you to things like kats or 85's if you want them. In fact I have seen pairs of players both go SI and have one go T3 and the other T4. The early kat was devastating to any at guns trying to hit the t70.

My point is that if your not building some form of vehicle aided by soviet industry, you have to be building infantry, if you don't you will have lost the game in 5 mins.

But if you build say 5 squads, then activate industry, well it cripples your MP income, so after reinforcing all your damaged squads... You will have no manpower left to build any new units.

So that's why I say moving the ability later is not such a simple fix.

[..] a pak 40 round would not damage a t70 it would easily destroy it in a single shot. Not take up to 4 hits to kill it.

Get a refund because your game doesn't work properly.

Get a refund because your game doesn't work properly.

Not saying it's likely, but it has happened to me. First two shots bring tank to 5%, third shot damages engine or takes out gun, fourth shot kills, sometimes sends it out of control which can require a fifth shot but I did not include that here since the tank is already dead.

In all my games, no T70 has survived more than 2 shots, the first one dealing more than 50% damage.


Perhaps a lvl T70 can survive 3, I don't know for sure.

In all my games, no T70 has survived more than 2 shots, the first one dealing more than 50% damage.


Perhaps a lvl T70 can survive 3, I don't know for sure.

its all dependent on rng. on the first shot will always take half its hp. the 2nd shot will always take it down to 0 hp. however, death is considered a crit in this game. a t70 has an 80% chance to die when its at 0 hp (that includes a 5% chance to be abandoned). theres a 10% chance it will lose its enginge and a 10% chance its gun will be destroyed.

the situation imagelessbean described only happens very rarely. for a t70 to survive the 2nd shot, it either lost its engine/gun or it wasnt a direct hit. the scatter can hit near the t70 and cause it to deal slightly less than 160 damage. the chances of either of these is obviously quite slim.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApmrrrPr20ncdEpuSHcxNko1VGVFYjczYXpFZWhqOHc&usp=drive_web#gid=11

Reposted here as per mod request:

I am not sure how well SI functions in 1v1, but it is still badly broken in 3v3 and 4v4 maps. I understand that we are not trying to balance the game around 3v3 and 4v4, but we should not make it a dumping ground for OP commanders.

Problem: SI's greatest weakness in smaller maps is the lack of early map control, but this is largely negated in larger maps where the same number or only slightly more points are present. A teammate will easily pick up the slack and cap any points an SI player cannot get to. Large maps also play well into SI because it discourages infantry use, and punishes AT guns by making them take a long time to walk to their target. Tanks can move rapidly, hitting soft points and easily win back map control. Finally, there is little risk here for the SI player. Even if a tank is lost they often did much damage and their teammates can pick up the slack while they continue to build tanks.

Solution:
1) Industry fuel could be tied to points on the map. Industry would boost fuel income from points captured, not give it to you because comrade Stalin is feeling generous. This would encourage players to play well and take points, but would also allow Ost players a way to counter the fuel income.

2) Alert players they are going against SI. Right now in team games it can be incredibly hard to guess you are about to see an early T34. If you build a pak and an early T34 does not appear you lose map control to conscripts. Ost players need a way to know, with some distinct sign that there will be an early tank push. I suggest highlighting all fuel points like they are occupied by Opel Blitzs.

3) SI encourages camping with repair stations. Repair stations should count towards total pop to reduce them being spammed.

4) There needs to be a clear weakness for picking SI in larger team games, as it stands right now there is none. I would be interested in people's opinion about how to fix this. T34's are too difficult to counter with just Pak 40's and PG's or Grens. They are too inconsistent and protect too small an area. The SI player can also choose to ignore them all and attack deep behind the lines destroying ops, and taking out reinforcements.

I am tired to playing against SI, it encourages all of the worst pieces of COH, including ignoring map control, spamming a single unit, ignoring unit preservation, and in the late game camping around repair stations with artillery (KV-2). I don't mind making this doctrine unique, but it is still badly in need of a rework.

Also before biased against Soviets, Elite is also badly in need of a rework, I just have not played against it enough to come up with good ideas.

TLDR: 1) Income should be tied to map, 2) Give players warning SI is being used, 3) Repair stations should count towards total pop, 4) still needs a nerf of some kind.

Infinite molotov industry?!

And comming with early tanks, if is a noob player, all right, but if not.. GG when you dont have 1 tank...

Whats your thoughts on this matter after the nerf - is it op or is it fine or even bad? Havent seen anybody winning with industry in replay-section, casts or in-game lately.

Whats your thoughts on this matter after the nerf - is it op or is it fine or even bad? Havent seen anybody winning with industry in replay-section, casts or in-game lately.

probably because there are even worst bullshit in the game right now

like troop training and insane vet boosts. lol +30% armour at vet2? what how did a panther turn into a tiger?

Whats your thoughts on this matter after the nerf - is it op or is it fine or even bad? Havent seen anybody winning with industry in replay-section, casts or in-game lately.

You have hudge penalty on manpower (-80MP) and nerfed medium tanks T-34 (T-70). Why use it? In current patch you need Shock Troops for killing free vet Gren and PzG. Vet 2 Panther kill all T-34/76 what you can have from SI. Now 2-3 Su-85 (plus ZiS) are enough for AT defend.

1 week ago i play versus one spam player that put 3 T70 tank and maxim spam...

They loose all the early game, but with it, they win fast, i quit...

Dont have counter for it if you use you munition on others cases and need some luck to boom the tinner's need for speed tank in early game...

Girl commander, what you expect...

ha. good job on turning another thread into unrelated complaints about elite troops.

You have hudge penalty on manpower (-80MP) and nerfed medium tanks T-34 (T-70). Why use it? In current patch you need Shock Troops for killing free vet Gren and PzG. Vet 2 Panther kill all T-34/76 what you can have from SI. Now 2-3 Su-85 (plus ZiS) are enough for AT defend.

its only -65mp and all tanks got nerfed (yes, even german tanks). if youre losing all your t34s to a single panther, youre doing it wrong.

as for the original question, industry is still really strong when used properly. like elite troops, it didnt really get much of a nerf last patch. the only direct change was build times for buildings is no longer decreased. that has no effect on the timing of the first tank though, just the t1/t2 start. indirectly its a bit worse because of the new scatter changes, though with proper micro you can mitigate that. if you get a feel for the timing of tank reloads, you can stop them just before they shoot so they dont have a moving penalty. when you only have a few t34s, you can easily kite grens using thing and avoid the faust. once you get enough tanks it gets harder to micro, but you can just overwhelm the germans at that point.

it may not be great in 1v1, but it still really shines in team games where you can rely on teammates to make up for your lack of infantry