AE's State of Coh3

it's not all terrible, relic aren't all terrible, and it's not fucked beyond repair.

Sure, its not. But who cares? If your house is burning, you can say "Well its not all terrible, since second floor is lessly damaged then the first one". But house is still in uninhabitable state regardless.

There is no point of coping about the game being not all that bad, because, while its not, people are leaving it. CoH2 back in the day, with all its problems, maintained bigger player base on release with-in the same time period, then CoH3, meaning that players tolerated all its problems and kept playing it. This is the sign of a game being "not all bad", which is not the case for CoH3, because its dropping to like 3500 players during the day, CoH2 never had so little players, despite having 10k less player peak on release. But its still speculation of course, looking at raw numbers, but point still is, that CoH3 lost much more % of players, then CoH2, giving the same time spend. And we are not even touching on subject, that CoH2 introduced much more players to the series then CoH1 did to CoH2.

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DoW3 didn't even had games to return to nor competitors, yet it died. CoH3 still has alive CoH1\CoH2 as a competitors.

We are agree to disagree here, but, imo, time for "just wait guys, its gonna be fine eventually" is passed. Every one should be vocal that game is in terrible state, with main argument being that player base is vanishing. Trust me SEGA probably already made its investments back with all the sales, so if the game isn't profitable, they wont let Relic keep game of life support, hoping it will one day become good, its not economically viable to do so. This is main concern, because Relic is basically under constant pressure from publisher, and they aren't an indie game studio, which has infinite amount of time to fix everything.

I was saying the same shit to my friends during alphas. "Surely its just an alpha, surely it will be fixed on release or shortly after, surely, surely, it cant be on release". But honestly enough is enough, game wont become suddenly alive if all "toxic community members" will stfu and become god-tier ones, because game will be fucking dead regardless of that, if Relic wont put their shit together asap.
And its better be vocal about it, rather then silently watch Relic management\developers or that single terrible guy among good professional people, fuck up the game so many people love.

And next balance patch better be really good one, because even without being supper pessimistic, its not clear if the game will survive if its shit for the next 2 months.

I uninstalled.

Might play again if it gets updated to a sufficient standard, if not, I have other games I can play.

You're still telling people to buy the game and support the series based on principle..

I never once in that video did any of the things you're stating, so maybe stop arguing with yourself?

Sure, its not. But who cares? If your house is burning, you can say "Well its not all terrible, since second floor is lessly damaged then the first one". But house is still in uninhabitable regardless.

I like the house analogy, but feel you've used the wrong one.

In this case, the house we've bought has huge problems, and has some nice features but is largely unfinished.

The builders aren't offering a refund, but are promising to come back and fix it later, we can either live in it (not ideal), or stay elsewhere until it's finished.

It's a shit situation, but it's the one we've got. The house however, certainly isn't on fire.

I uninstalled.

Might play again if it gets updated to a sufficient standard, if not, I have other games I can play.

Literally the best course of action for the majority of fans.

I like the house analogy, but feel you've used the wrong one.

In this case, the house we've bought has huge problems, and has some nice features but is largely unfinished.

The builders aren't offering a refund, but are promising to come back and fix it later, we can either live in it (not ideal), or stay elsewhere until it's finished.

It's a shit situation, but it's the one we've got. The house however, certainly isn't on fire.

With a remark. There is a possibility that the government officials will come (SEGA) and say that your house is bad looking and it should be demolished, since it wasn't finished in time.

I never once in that video did any of the things you're stating, so maybe stop arguing with yourself?

You're trying to sell people on the idea that the game is going to get better. Everything else is implicit in that.

You're trying to sell people on the idea that the game is going to get better. Everything else is implicit in that.

.

Such a weird flex. "I've decided this is shit and relic don't deserve my money. Because you don't necessarily agree with me, you are a desperate stupid shil."

AE's video is alright. I don't agree with quite some points or at least the conclusion from them, but a discussion is not about everyone having the same opinion as you yourself do.

The comparison to CoH2 in my eyes is a bit misleading. Yes, CoH2 had serious issues too at release and Relic fixed it into a really good game. CoH3 has (my opinion) overall deeper issues, but also a lot of improvements that the player base actually wants. CoH2's release tells us not much, because 10 years have passed and company policies might have changed a lot since then.
Will Relic abandon the game? Hard to tell. I don't know why so many of you are sure they either will or won't. We know jack shit.
Yes, players are leaving the game, more so than CoH2 at release in relative terms while Relic has likely grown. The higher player number initially however also indicates more potential for a bounce back. It also does not matter if SEGA already made their money back or not. What matters is if CoH3 is from now on a viable investment. Is it worth putting 1-2 more years of updates and expansions into an already released game? Or is it better to invest the time into the next development cycle of a new game? We can't tell, that's a very complex decision and depends on SEGA's and Relic's market research and expectations, as well as current funding. There's also other factors like PR and reputation to it. Point is, unless you're really working in financial analytics or have insights into SEGA and Relic specifics, it's way too early to jump on either of the trains. Average Joes like us don't have the info yet, it's been two months since release. I've seen worse games recover, and better games fail due to a lack of support.

Under Microsoft, Relic has shown to be able to support AoE4 long term. Hard to say if they do the same thing under SEGA, but unless SEGA decides to flip the kill switch, Relic has the capability of actually doing the right thing long term. We'll see what happens in the next couple of months.

If you do not like a game, walk away
Bitching about all bad games out there makes no sense at all. (it will keep you busy though)

So why all this persistent raging about COH3?

I guess it is disappointment. Emotionally involved, with expectations not met.
Relic now has gotten this message for sure. Many are disappointed. They know that.

Now what can we do?

• Keep raging. That keeps you (all those who are not satisfied) in this unhappy trench for a long time. And it will at some point also lead to frustration and bad reactions at Relic. Not good in the long run for you and everybody.
  
• Walk away. Good for you (ends the frustration)
  
• Wait (do sth else in the meantime)
  
• Accept what is, lower your expectations, enjoy what you have (challenging, but possible)
  
  

Assuming Relic has received enough hate/rage/criticism, and I think they have, I want to be a missionary for path 2-4. They all make you more happy than 1.
cheers

...Is it worth putting 1-2 more years of updates and expansions into an already released game? Or is it better to invest the time into the next development cycle of a new game?...

This line of thinking is a nonstarter. If Relic thinks they can pull that shit and leave CoH 3 in *this* state, they're done. I don't know about you Hannibal, but I would be absolutely DONE with Relic. They wouldn't see even a fraction of a cent from me going forward.

They would confirm, in no uncertain terms, that they are soulless and motivated only by the drive to provide returns to investors, and not to make a game that is actually worth the space it takes up on my SSD.

You had better hope they don't pull this. I'm serious.

Assuming Relic has received enough hate/rage/criticism, and I think they have, I want to be a missionary for path 2-4. They all make you more happy than 1.
cheers

Believe me mate, the only time CoH 3 enters my mind is when I'm bored and browsing coh2.org. I've been back to CoH 2 with my friends for weeks now.

If you do not like a game, walk away
Bitching about all bad games out there makes no sense at all. (it will keep you busy though)

So why all this persistent raging about COH3?

I guess it is disappointment. Emotionally involved, with expectations not met.
Relic now has gotten this message for sure. Many are disappointed. They know that.

Now what can we do?

• Keep raging. That keeps you (all those who are not satisfied) in this unhappy trench for a long time. And it will at some point also lead to frustration and bad reactions at Relic. Not good in the long run for you and everybody.
  
• Walk away. Good for you (ends the frustration)
  
• Wait (do sth else in the meantime)
  
• Accept what is, lower your expectations, enjoy what you have (challenging, but possible)
  
  

Assuming Relic has received enough hate/rage/criticism, and I think they have, I want to be a missionary for path 2-4. They all make you more happy than 1.
cheers

I don't get this argumentation. Yes, not every rage is fair and good, but walking away from problems only works if you expect them to not come back and bite you. Suggesting to not complain is suggesting to not voice your concern. Why? Why should I not voice it? You're basically saying their opinion should not matter because it has been heard often enough or because it is invalid in the first place (basically point 2, the only reason is frustration). That's nonsense.
The gaming industry has seen a lot of cash grabs, Relic and CoH3 show clear first signs of that. If you like the franchise and let them get away with it, complain. That's good and fair. New players need to hear about the issues and Relic needs to have the pressure. If everyone just reads 'the game is fine' and 'I'm having fun', nothing will change and both your favourite game and franchise in particular, as well as the gaming industry overall will become worse.

This line of thinking is a nonstarter. If Relic thinks they can pull that shit and leave CoH 3 in *this* state, they're done. I don't know about you Hannibal, but I would be absolutely DONE with Relic. They wouldn't see even a fraction of a cent from me going forward.

They would confirm, in no uncertain terms, that they are soulless and motivated only by the drive to provide returns to investors, and not to make a game that is actually worth the space it takes up on my SSD.

You had better hope they don't pull this. I'm serious.

I guess Relic would downsize significantly, mass layoffs and become a mid sized company developing a new franchise. CoH would probably be dead as well. They might found a new studio if they deem Relic as a brand as taintes.
It's not nice, but thinkable from an economic point. If the costs for fixing would vastly outdo the gains, it might be done. Company restructurings like that have been done plentifully.

My main point is that we have people shouting both 'Don't worry, Relic will surely fix everything' and 'Relic/CoH will go down and bancrupt', while neither of them actually knows shit. None of us does, we don't know where the manager's currently evaluate the franchise. Both sides who deal in those absolutes are talking nonsense.

I doubt we'll see any shutdown in the next months. Not even trying would be an odd decision. DoW3 has been abandoned 10 months in, but the game was dead after a few weeks. Compared to that dead corpse, CoH3 is super healthy. There's still a player base, a lot of fans, probably decentish first sales. It would be stupid not to try for a few more months to fix the game and see how many players come back.
Current player numbers won't support a studio of Relic's size either. If the patches don't bring the game back, then I can see Relic ceasing support. But that decision is probably a couple of months away.

The topic has turned to "Why are we here talking about Coh3?"

Because we are the hardcore players. We like Coh enough to come here and talk with people that have similar interests to us. No one on Twitter is going to get a Brit AT blob joke.

Here are my big fears:
1) Relic pushed out a corn filled turd that destroyed the player base. Players have left to go play something else, be it Coh2 or even a new game. A lot of those players are never coming back.

The overall player base could have been much better if the game was great at release. We could have picked up new MP players over time. So instead of gaining players, we lost players in all Coh games.

2) Relic destroyed their own monetary source. How many copies have they NOT sold because the game sucks donkey balls?

3) The design decisions Relic made are horrible. They clearly have no idea what they are doing. This does not bode well for the future of Coh3.

4) How many community members/streamers/etc have left the building because Coh3 is trash?

All of this adds up to "Relic is setup to fail". Management are clueless wonders. As fans of the game, we are talking about Coh3 because Relic could shut its doors any day now. Coh3 could be dropped at a minimum.

The bad decisions made were done on purpose. Which is a huge red flag that they have no idea what they are doing.

We are also here because we all think the game can be fixed. And that is the real F**K YOU from Relic. Not only have they destroyed the game we love. Murdered the community. They are now telling you to shut your little bitch mouth, we will fix it, if and when we feel like it. And all of you clowns are still sitting here waiting for it to get better.

No road map, no clear indication of if it will ever be fixed. Blocking, erasing, banning anyone who has something bad to say about them.

Relic is shitting on your face and you are taking it.

No one should be playing this game. No one should be talking about it. Everyone should delete it immediately and never return.

We should all be here laughing with marshmellows on our sticks as we cook them in the flames coming off the Relic building. That is why I come here everyday. To commiserate with the other victims of this violent sexual assault perpetrated on the community.

My 2 cents on the topic:
I totally get that players are dissatisfied / pissed with the current state of CoH3. I also share those frustrations. So criticizing Relic is all good and deserved but some community members started alrdy before the release a crusade against CoH3 ("mobile game") and post every day how bad the game is.
Well, it's completly alright if they don't like it but some dudes seem to have a problem with the simple fact that other players have still fun with the game (despite all known issues) and just want to have a good time. I know a lot of players in my group that prefer CoH3 over CoH2. Why do they have to defend themselves? I think that's the bigger problem.

Well, it's completly alright if they don't like it but some dudes seem to have a problem with the simple fact that other players have still fun with the game (despite all known issues) and just want to have a good time. I know a lot of players in my group that prefer CoH3 over CoH2. Why do they have to defend themselves? I think that's the bigger problem.

My stance is that Coh3 is missing several features I would call critical/required. Those features would not stop many people from having fun. You should not take any critical stances as a stab at you as a player who enjoys Coh3. Play all you want, we are all jealous we cant enjoy it as much as you do.

The game can be fun and has great bones. That is why everyone is here talking about it critical or not. It CAN get better. We WANT it to get better.

But will it??? Relic does not seem to care. Just like they never cared about Coh2 match making. etc etc etc. The only way to get Coh3 better is to flame Relic as often and as loud as possible.

There is no need to take criticism as a negative. It comes from a positive place. Improving Coh3.

EDIT:

Why do they have to defend themselves?

When I said we should all uninstall and move on, I meant the people who are not happy. If you are happy, keep playing. It may get worse for a bit but eventually should get better.

What I don't understand is how the balance is a mess and meta is one-dimensional after promising community cooperation from the start.

I refuse to belive a relic/sega overlord told the hired "pro" players to make section, jaeger blobs and other nasty, broken shit

Either this or they were making coffee during the whole development cycle. Only thing they showed was the faster VP tick rate.


And in the meanwhile we have community members making maps, balance patches and fixing the missing UI elements.


Relic deserves all the negative feedback they receive.

What I don't understand is how the balance is a mess and meta is one-dimensional after promising community cooperation from the start.

It might have been only lip service to boost marketing. It might have also been failed project planning, where the project and implementations how exactly the community will be incorporated have not been laid out properly, then game development lagged behind, Relic fell into damage control and panic mode, went back to the normal dev cycles that everyone knows and community was low priority. This would be in line with the fact that they started out with a very early, surprising and well communicated alpha test, but did not plan for a MP test and only squeezed it in after delaying the game.

I wouldn't blame Relic for a one dimensional meta though. A game with this complexity and interactions takes months to years to balance. There wasn't even a meta after one week of MP test and the community put tons of hours in. The devs can playtest, but not all the possible setups and strategies and not at all skill levels.

CoH2 took years to balance, even once the community took over we went from one often one sided meta to the next for the first two years at least. CoH3 is even more complex than CoH2, so that task is even harder. That doesn't excuse Relic from taking ages to release a hopefully proper balance patch.

It might have been only lip service to boost marketing. It might have also been failed project planning, where the project and implementations how exactly the community will be incorporated have not been laid out properly, then game development lagged behind, Relic fell into damage control and panic mode, went back to the normal dev cycles that everyone knows and community was low priority. This would be in line with the fact that they started out with a very early, surprising and well communicated alpha test, but did not plan for a MP test and only squeezed it in after delaying the game.

Nah probably DevM got assigned to make cofee for the art team.

Joke aside Relic couldn't keep up to their word and the recent Q&A shows how out of touch they are with the community. I respect AE and anyone else who still believe but honestly its just pure hopium at this point

Denial: No, Relic is listening to the community, not going to repeat CoH2 mistakes, the final product is going to be much better than beta.

Anger: Steam reviews, negativity on social media.

Bargaining: Ok, CoH2 had many problems on launch too. Give them some months, they will add content/features/balance.

Depression: Coming back for the couple rounds, only to realize that it is not going to happen. Instead of angry-expressive-negative, now just sad-negative. Looking at the people who still play or keep positive attitude just gets you in a bad mood.

Acceptance: Realizing that CoH3 is not going to be the game you wanted. Investing any more energy into discussing or caring about it is bad for you. Let whoever still cares about CoH3 to do their own thing, it is fine. Move on to another esports game to be a pro-gamer, like Genshin Impact.