VP tick rate in CoH3

Official Relic respond to VP change
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Since there wasn't any decent thread about VPs, decided to create one, besides recently found Marco post about VPs.

Basically we don't need to speculate on how long games will last, since we pretty much got official expected timing of the games from relic.

Speaking for myself, I am not a fan of a new 3 seconds VP drain. Wasn't a fan when I learned about the change, was disappointed even more after tech test. Here is my reasoning.

1) With the new VP drain, emphasis of the good early game engagements is even bigger. Because you basically over-all have smaller window to recover.
2) Whole game phasing forced to be extremely fast, where every bit of resources have to spend with extra caution. For instance, getting one more inf squad before your AT weaponry, might cost you the game, because you simply wont have enough time\res to respond to enemy armor if it arrives.
3) Because of the point 2 game is super punishing towards the players who lost his unit. Since you dont have enough time to sit back a little and rebuild it, without being in danger of not having counter measure to the possible new enemy units.
4) Unlike CoH2, CoH3 maps have a similar size of vCoH maps, meaning that retreating from the centre of the map, might take up to 10+ seconds, on 3v3\4v4 maps it might take even longer. Making retreating, even more punishing then it was before time wise
5) With such fast timings, the whole concept of stronger "early\mid\late" game factions sounds fishy. We dont know what the meta will be and how the game will be played when people learn it, but it might end up being problematic.
6) Promotes static gameplay, because why would you want to push, if you can just end game in a 15-16 min mark

Why I dont agree with Marcos reasoning.

1) More emphasis VPs over territory argument. This was pure CoH2 problem, because of the map design. In vCoH it was just as important to hold VPs or more territory. In vCoH by having more territory you basically had bigger army due to increased army limit. So game forced you to maintain balance of VPs\terr captured. It was a chose to make. Games in 1 concluded usually not only by VPs, but also by economy\territory collapse of one player, pretty much ending the game.

In CoH2, you basically only had to control 4 points, to have all fuel\muni income and with the emphasis of late game, VPs fall short as less important objective. In gamemodes larger then 2v2, res points are either located in super safe areas, which almost impossible to contest or near VPs resulting in one side controlling both VP and income points at the same time. Both situations led to super long games.

In CoH3 we pretty much have vCoH model (minus pop-cap changes), which already rewards players for capping and harassing enemy territory, because you can actually cripple enemy economy, but this change is fully denied by the fact that, now players who sit on VPs will be able to end game faster, making the whole CoH2 situation ones again, but in reverse. In 2 it was fuel\muni point which win the game, in 3 now its pure VP.

2) Closing game faster if one team is dominating. Solid point. But what about the games where no-one is dominating the other and one team just had a bad start? Now players, have much less time to recover, much less time to prepare and comeback. Dominating team most likely will have tripple cap anyway, so why not just make 3 seconds drain only with tripple cap?

On top of that CoH3 fixed plenty of 1 and 2 problems, be it super strong garrisons, forward retreating, factions with essential tools, gimmics and so on. All of them and more, lead to undesirable results in previous titles, so I see zero reason of 3 seconds VP drain, because major side problems were fixed, while this change still applied makes no sense to me.

Your toughs?

CoH3 is not about late game tank spams and slugfests like 2nd was.
If you want to turtle, do it on VPs.

CoH3 is not about late game tank spams and slugfests like 2nd was.
If you want to turtle, do it on VPs.

I've already covered it. Its pretty much oblivious why 2 was about slugfests. Because 99% of the time, outside 1v1 and 2v2 to some extend, if was impossible to harass enemy economy. Starting from the fact that every statigic point could be turned into fuel\muni ending up with the fact that all map income is spread thro 4 points.

CoH3 has no such problem, you can harrass economy and flank in 4v4 just like in 1v1.

CoH3 doesn't have any retreat points (besides USF using inf company), meaning that retreat is a retreat. Another reason why 2 was a slugfest.

You are looking at the problem from a wrong angle, look at it not from a perspective of a CoH2 but from a gameplay one.

For instance in CoH2, retreating from the middle of the map 2v2, takes around 10 seconds, in 3v3\4v4 it might take around 15+ seconds. Plus time to get back. Sure, we could say "play smart, if you retreated you've lost" sure, legit point. But it still takes a lot of time from an already short games.

It takes 8 mins to win game if you have 3VPs, what is this 8 mins? You basically have like chance to attack 2-3 times, if you failed you've lost the game. On top of the already much faster gameplay, this is an over-kill.

It takes 8 mins to win game if you have 3VPs, what is this 8 mins? You basically have like chance to attack 2-3 times, if you failed you've lost the game. On top of the already much faster gameplay, this is an over-kill.

It's more realistically an additional 3-5 minutes at minimum, due to the game startup.

The game seems also to be less about wiping squads so there might be less occasions to screw up majorly and lose the game because of one bad move.
I'm currently willing to have a look first to see how it works out, but skeptical about the change overall. It might actually defeat the point of the emphasis on clever maneuvering, since late game might be even more about running into VPs than in CoH2. But I've made my points in the thread I opened about it already.

I will be speaking based on my experience on 1v1.

I personally enjoyed the 3 VP introduction, at first I thought I wouldn't because even I had extremely close games that wouldn't of been wins if it was, of course loses as well.

Why do I think its a good change? The Simple answer is the pacing of the matches, with the emphasis more on Infantry, Light tank/vehicle play as well as larger windows in both early and medium gameplay with large unit rosters I hope it cuts down on the late game cheese.

I will also enjoy the cut down of frankly undeserved last minute comebacks that should of been gg but because all points provide everything fuel and muni even a enemy that should of been defeated can miracoulsy come back.

Why do I think its a good change? The Simple answer is the pacing of the matches, with the emphasis more on Infantry, Light tank/vehicle play as well as larger windows in both early and medium gameplay with large unit rosters I hope it cuts down on the late game cheese.

But what is late game exactly? In 3 right now, every one pretty much has access to some sort of armor (besides UKF), relatively early compared to 1 and 2. Thing is in vCoH and CoH2, besides few light tanks there was no armor awaible early\mid game what so ever, while in 3 there are plenty of it relatively early. So it should be clarified what is a late game to begin with.

If the game is not completely one sided in 3, you always reach its late game anyway, with a difference being that in other games lategame comes at around ~20 min mark and in 3 its around ~15 mins.

But what is late game exactly? In 3 right now, every one pretty much has access to some sort of armor (besides UKF), relatively early compared to 1 and 2. Thing is in vCoH and CoH2, besides few light tanks there was no armor awaible early\mid game what so ever, while in 3 there are plenty of it relatively early. So it should be clarified what is a late game to begin with.

If the game is not completely one sided in 3, you always reach its late game anyway, with a difference being that in other games lategame comes at around ~20 min mark and in 3 its around ~15 mins.

As of Right now past the 15 min mark, I' can't speak about 3's but then again I believe the game is balance around 1's and 2's.

That's Kind of of the point of the larger windows in of early and mid, so instead of everyone rushing to late tech to get the first tank, which only really gives you a 2 or 3 min head start on contrary to coh 1 infantry and light vehicle play is very impactful and deadly. The dev diary's themselves said they took a lot of inspiration from coh1 and even old veteran players like me could tell that coh 3 is heavily based on coh 1 WITH sprinkles of coh 2. (the good bits).

It is a great change most of us simply don't have the time these days for almost guaranteed an hour+ for every game I'm so glad they sped things up and did away with the rediculous almost unkillable super heavies! But u need not worry if u savor a longer game. Modding is shipping with the game and I have no doubt in custom matches u will be able to change these settings to better suit your taste as it was in Coh2. Also the devs have mentioned I believe I'm remembering this correctly, I think they said to include many different game modes and varieties.

the devs have mentioned I believe I'm remembering this correctly, I think they said to include many different game modes and varieties.

I really really REALLY hope they add the Attrition gamemode into CoH3. It was such a cool gamemode that sadly got forgotten about when Relic passed the reins to the community balance team.

3 second tick is a welcome change for me.

I think Relic made a educated move here and figured out pretty early that super heavies were not going to be a part of the game due to the Med Theatre = Make games shorter so we dont feel like there is something missing in that super late game

I also think that it raises the skill ceiling considerably - CoH2 was all about securing fuel within the first 10-15 minutes. Players will now have to more actively take into consideration ticket bleed.

It also goes a long way to combating the absolute cancer that was the Axis mid game turtle on 1 VP until you can call in the Heavies and blap infantry

Official Relic respond to VP change
Show Spoiler

1) With the new VP drain, emphasis of the good early game engagements is even bigger. Because you basically over-all have smaller window to recover.
2) Whole game phasing forced to be extremely fast, where every bit of resources have to spend with extra caution. For instance, getting one more inf squad before your AT weaponry, might cost you the game, because you simply wont have enough time\res to respond to enemy armor if it arrives.
3) Because of the point 2 game is super punishing towards the players who lost his unit. Since you dont have enough time to sit back a little and rebuild it, without being in danger of not having counter measure to the possible new enemy units.

Totally agree !

I have played both previous titles a lot, and apart from graphicals the VP tick rate is my biggest concern right now. I just feel there is no more option of having a "comeback" to the game when making a wrong decision in early game.

But that was just for me the most vital point what COH series make so unique.

Especially for low skilled players this makes the access to the game even more difficult when facing a lot of vet players and will not benifical to community and player numbers in future.

Do not change the COH3 tick rate, this is an outstanding change and is long overdue.

Prefer the 4 second tick rate of Coh2

I think people are going to enjoy the 3 second tickrate more when the game starts properly matching up equally skilled players together. As of now, people seem to be having more experience with the shorter side of games (clapping the enemy's cheeks then winning the game sub 10 minutes OR getting clapped and losing the game fast).

I, personally, am starting to appreciate the faster game time more and more, where I can be pretty confident that starting a game won't lock me into an hour plus long slog.

There's always annihilation for those who like to stomp noobs for an inordinate amount of time.

I love CoH3, but I absolutely loathe the 3-second tick rate. I understand what they're trying to do, I understand the pacing is different, I like the emphasis on light vehicles. But the very few games I've had in 3 that actually last longer than 40 minutes are so rare, and they're by far the best games. It really sucks how infrequent the epic late-game battles are. The hour-long 4v4s were the most intense and memorable games from 2, and they're basically dead in the water now. And it isn't just 4v4s, either. 2v2s feel too damn short, too.

The maps and resource system are so much better-designed, and maps are less laney than in 2, and it's somewhat gone to waste because it that would have solved some of the problems CoH2 had where artillery and heavy tanks dominated behind a wall of tank destroyers. You can actually interrupt the opponent's economy so much better now with really well-placed strategic points.

The lack of late game is my #1 complaint about 3. The games just end way too fast, and it really kills so much of the game for me and all my friends. It honestly upsets me people like this god-awful change. I'd give my left nut to revert it.

I want the change reverted completely, but at this point, I'd be relieved to even get a compromise. Just anything to make the average game length longer than it currently is.

There's always annihilation for those who like to stomp noobs for an inordinate amount of time.

750 VP ticket lobbies (and Annihilation, too, I guess) are a total non-factor without them being in automatch. No automatch, no point. The 750 tick games that I have played with friends are so much better than 500, and it makes me sad how we'll never get real games with it.

I like the system, you can go early game all-in or rush late game and surprise your opponent if he isn't capable to react.

I had various game where my opponent did early game push and I still manage to kick him and drown him late game, same for some late game rush punished early.

Imo the game is balance in this aspect if we exclude Cheesy strats.

I think people are going to enjoy the 3 second tickrate more when the game starts properly matching up equally skilled players together.

Unless they properly account for premade teams then matchmaking will struggle to be balanced. Fallpios being dropped on every point at the start of the match can easily drain you of 100 vps by the time you push them off and regain a neutral/VP majority.

Unless they properly account for premade teams then matchmaking will struggle to be balanced. Fallpios being dropped on every point at the start of the match can easily drain you of 100 vps by the time you push them off and regain a neutral/VP majority.

Premades are not a problem when opponents are of equal elo, problem is when you have say 1200 elo premade, you are 1300 elo and get 1000 elo team mate.

That opening while it certainly sounds like fun just screams of economical disadvantage so you'll have your armor much faster then wehr doing that.

Premades are not a problem when opponents are of equal elo, problem is when you have say 1200 elo premade, you are 1300 elo and get 1000 elo team mate.

That opening while it certainly sounds like fun just screams of economical disadvantage so you'll have your armor much faster then wehr doing that.

I've been on both sides of maybe a more sophisticated version that fights for a VP and the natural fuel nearest to the Allied HQ. The FallPios duel well enough and buy enough time that unless the defenders are aware to it and deviate from the average: you go this way, I go that way, stick to our lanes strategies, and overload that point... which players still don't seem to do in my player pool (solo queuing ~1100 strength team games (I know 🤢)) the Allies can really fall behind on pts and resources. There isn't really an Allied equivalent, the premade point is important too, individual elo is masked by coordination and executing an opening that is sort of only countered by teamwork which, as we know, you may or may not find.

Premades are not a problem when opponents are of equal elo, problem is when you have say 1200 elo premade, you are 1300 elo and get 1000 elo team mate.

That opening while it certainly sounds like fun just screams of economical disadvantage so you'll have your armor much faster then wehr doing that.

A premade on discord will always have an advantage regardless of elo.