since we are adding prototype tanks in game

World War II media have almost always been a Nazi's wet dream, probably the greatest success of that regime was cultivating their image to the point that, eighty years later, people still jerk off to Rommel's portrait.

ummmm no?

and even so, it's completely offtopic what you say

Based, you know the answer to your own question on the Ratte, and relic knows their answer as well on that vehicle but I mean reach out to them on Twitter and ask.

As for this post on politics and trying to swing the world had dictatorships, these ones were bad too German army was effective blah blah blah wasn't aware we were suddenly discussing that here. Post 85 is in the wrong thread that's for sure

But ill humor your aspect of the "hardware" part, COH franchise the German factions have never been left wanting for cool not so historical toys.

So I reiterate my point as is being done so by a few people now, COH as a franchise isn't historically accurate.

We have a Luftwaffe that exists post Bodenplatte, we've had halftracks that set up some kind of New York stock exchange and steal US currency, we have King tigers possible in every single OKW match. We have invincible Stukas dropping supply crates on natural fuel points we have ostwinds, wirblewinds, flame hetzers and sturmtigers available in amazing numbers. Tactically deployed V1s also come to mind.

but oh no there's a thic allied boy with a gun that's bigger than normal is being given to the allied faction so its all broken now. Again I see the detractors as gate keepers to some skewed ideal of "realism" in COH and I personally see it as a hard to make albeit entertaining to watch argument.

Conclusion, Relic is steering their product don't its normal path. Some units and abilities represent the real history very poorly but its entertaining to have them and use them.

You seem to have half a braincell left but still cannot grasp what I am saying for 1500 posts by now.

COH was never realistic, in this we agree.

But it was NEVER historical fiction. You talk about Luftwaffe and Bodennplatte etc. (which took place in January 1945 whilst the game mainly takes place in 1941-1944 but whatever I will let that slide) while you self prove the point I am making all along:

The toys everybody uses in the game existed at some point or another. They were not made up. Sure they got the director's markup that is required in order to make a game good and fun, but otherwise you can wikipedia every machine available and check out for yourself when how and why it was used.

BP is historical fiction plain and simple. I could also make a historical fiction by removing the Soviet T34 (since in the start of the war it was much despised by the soviet leadership anyways who did not understand basic combined arms --Stalin himself almost ruled against it) and having PzIVs steamrolling Soviet horse divisions? How abou that?

My post was pointing out the futility of the numbers argument in the first place. that is why we did get a King Tiger accessible to every OKW player and a Luftwaffe that exists post Bodenplatte. Again playing a dads army and boy scout 45 Germany wouldn't be fun so they bolstered them to make an interesting product.

The point stands that in the process of making their titles Relic doesn't need to gate keep historical accuracy as they've done so to the games benefit and it can be said that it has been a hot button to add some fairly rare and typically German units as they did indeed struggle with hardware issues as you graciously pointed out.

This isn't about Election issue, political numbers, good or evil either.

To return to the point we've had Relic add units they see fit to add excitement to the game rather than their historical weight, Black prince is welcome. They've designed the product around it and I don't think they need to abide some gatekeepers quoting numbers.

We have had fictional vehicles and items before, Invincible stukas, vampire halftracks teleporting resources off an opponent, distributed IR sighted rifles and a stock IR halftrack that are integrated into the tactical structure as if the troops would know how to use them. So I welcome the Black Princes fictional status if they've put in the work to add it.

You are either a child who cannot comprehend abstract ideas or a borderline autistic person who cannot dispell what he sees from what is to be seen.

There are no "vampire" halftracks in the game and they sure as fuck do not suck fuel from the fucking ground. What they represent is the choice of player to alot military manpower into the production of military goods? Did that happen historically? Fuck yeah it did, check out the Todt organization for starters. Just because lelic did not put in the work to handfully make a couple of minions drilling into the ground to start producing fuel does not mean that the incentive is not there. This argument you make is so ridiculous one would not even realize you are a grown adult making this claim.

I am 100% certain that if you ever played EU4 or CK2/3 and saw a single soldier with a bayonet conquering a whole country you would say that how is it possible for a single man to take down a whole society and thus arge PDX to make "historical" adjustments (meanwhile the single man represents thousands of soldiers that the company did not add for aesthetic reasons).

"We have fictional vehicles" name one vehicle that Relic invent and did not serve in WW2. I wait.

If you are talking about IR halftrack, I would have you know that Wehrmacht had one of the most advanced optics industry of the times, but they used up most of their power to sustain making Flak guns (Speer himself says so in his Memoirs, along with Doenitz and I think Guderian), so having a IR HT is perfectly fine. Same with IR guns. They did exist, not mass produced for sure. But the technology was there.

Why are you sure that these are air bridges of 1945? When the OKW was based on 1944-1945. And in 1944 Germany continued air supply.And the flamethrower Hetzer as was the Ostwind was used in the Ardennes Operation, event in which the game takes place.

Germans sure had air bridges a lot but they never had air superiority after 1943.

But people cannot comprehend the difference. They think after failed London Bombing Luftwaffe had 0 planes while in actuality even until July 1944 1400 planes monthly were being made.

You seem to have half a braincell left but still cannot grasp what I am saying for 1500 posts by now.

COH was never realistic, in this we agree.

But it was NEVER historical fiction. You talk about Luftwaffe and Bodennplatte etc. (which took place in January 1945 whilst the game mainly takes place in 1941-1944 but whatever I will let that slide) while you self prove the point I am making all along:

The toys everybody uses in the game existed at some point or another. They were not made up. Sure they got the director's markup that is required in order to make a game good and fun, but otherwise you can wikipedia every machine available and check out for yourself when how and why it was used.

BP is historical fiction plain and simple. I could also make a historical fiction by removing the Soviet T34 (since in the start of the war it was much despised by the soviet leadership anyways who did not understand basic combined arms --Stalin himself almost ruled against it) and having PzIVs steamrolling Soviet horse divisions? How abou that?

Historcal fiction means it never was a concept and never build and never tested etc, sucked out of ones thumb basicly. The bp was concepted that got tested with protypes. That you are so stuck on this ludicrous take on the bp in coh3 speaks volumes.

Just because it didnt see action is no valid reason to blanket deney it into coh3. coh has always taken some liberty with historie. Such as late war axis vs early war soviets, late ear luftwaffe being actualy effective/near invunerable. the sheer numbers that allies had not being put in the game. The ST had about 18 build and its recorded actions are scetchy at best. And it got in and was once stock to okw.

No please stop complaining and acting like your are better and some kind off authority on this game.

I am not sure why people keep repeating the number of axis vehicles produced.

This thread is not really about axis or allied vehicles but about introducing vehicle that never so action or not.

The Black Prince never saw action and even if it had it would be a bad tank. If one wanted to make a Churchill with a bigger "bang" one could introduce any of the version that actually produced like the one with 75mm gun or the 95mm howizter

Add ratte yes or no then?

Wouldn't it be better to compare the Black Prince to the Maus as both were prototyped but never saw action? They at least got something in a museum so they are both not fiction.

If one wanted to make a Churchill with a bigger "bang" one could introduce any of the version that actually produced like the one with 75mm gun

AI Upscaled and Color added to old photos of the Churchill-NA75 which was upgraded with 75mm Gun, was actually used in combat and it was also in Italy as well.


The Churchill-NA75 is what they should have added, not the Black Prince

I am not sure why people keep repeating the number of axis vehicles produced.

This thread is not really about axis or allied vehicles but about introducing vehicle that never so action or not.

The Black Prince never saw action and even if it had it would be a bad tank. If one wanted to make a Churchill with a bigger "bang" one could introduce any of the version that actually produced like the one with 75mm gun or the 95mm howizter

Its a valid point you make about the other versions being a better choice. The bp just sounds cool imo.

Other people keep complaining about it just being a protype so its insanity they add it in the game, wich for a game wich is already loose with history is nonsense. Some other vehicles where produced so little and had questionable nr of actions at best, they are no better then a prototype.

This imo all boils down to only axis can have wunder waffen and big guns. Allies cant period.

If vampire halftrack stealing resources via the New York stock exchange, Invincible Stukas and Bergetigers recovering total wrecks in 1-2 minutes aren't historical fiction as well I don't know what is by your gate keeping standards. There's been some pretty historical fiction moves in this game plenty of times. Again this is totally gatekeeping on a funny level. I mean you have air support post Bodenplatte for the Germans in the West, fiction.

Unit has been part of the design process and is meant to take part in their product.

The name calling is pretty top notch funny though seriously this is a discussion place not a playground in grade school.

Its kinda funny how every single argument thrown in defence of BP is complete non-sense.

CoH was never historically accurate and unit represented in a series are made\balanced in order for the game to be playable and interesting. Period.

That being said all units in CoH were used in ww2.

Problems with them were:
1) Unit might have been out of place year\front wise
2) Unit might have been built in low numbers, yet, in the context of a single match "total amount build" doesn't make any sense, since it still wont be reached.

Bringing oblivious arcade gameplay mechanics is just a stretch. You know, yeah bergitiger could have resurrect tanks, as well as regular engis can fix turret by wielding it. Both are unrealistic, but believable as well as, its purely gameplay mechanics.

Point being, stop trying to find any arguments like "it was always like this". No it wasn't. Never have been, no matter how many arguments you are trying to make. There is literally none, since even BS like sturmtiger still counts as a realistic option because it was used.

Point of the discussion is "Unit X was finished after the war and never used IRL by anyone". Period. And you either:
a) Dislike it with augmentation why
b) Like\Dont mind it, with argumentation why.

People dont like it, not because "its historically inaccurate\unrealistic". But because they dont want to see prototype units added and greenlighted.

Not because "UH WEHRBOOO SEES ALLIES HEAVY", but because there are already plenty of options which were used IRL and could be balanced to have performance of BP, since CoH has unrealistic unit stats and every unit is just a model with a bunch of numbers behind it.

Its kinda funny how every single argument thrown in defence of BP is complete non-sense.

CoH was never historically accurate and unit represented in a series are made\balanced in order for the game to be playable and interesting. Period.

That being said all units in CoH were used in ww2.

Problems with them were:
1) Unit might have been out of place year\front wise
2) Unit might have been built in low numbers, yet, in the context of a single match "total amount build" doesn't make any sense, since it still wont be reached.

Bringing oblivious arcade gameplay mechanics is just a stretch. You know, yeah bergitiger could have resurrect tanks, as well as regular engis can fix turret by wielding it. Both are unrealistic, but believable as well as, its purely gameplay mechanics.

Point being, stop trying to find any arguments like "it was always like this". No it wasn't. Never have been, no matter how many arguments you are trying to make. There is literally none, since even BS like sturmtiger still counts as a realistic option because it was used.

Point of the discussion is "Unit X was finished after the war and never used IRL by anyone". Period. And you either:
a) Dislike it with augmentation why
b) Like\Dont mind it, with argumentation why.

People dont like it, not because "its historically inaccurate\unrealistic". But because they dont want to see prototype units added and greenlighted.

Not because "UH WEHRBOOO SEES ALLIES HEAVY", but because there are already plenty of options which were used IRL and could be balanced to have performance of BP, since CoH has unrealistic unit stats and every unit is just a model with a bunch of numbers behind it.

I dont mind if a other churchill model was chosen instead, it already looks like a churchil just with a big gun, so i dont see what the fuzz is about. But the sheer fanatical (for the lack of a better word) to dislike or hate for the bp adding is just astounding. Calling it all sort of things. Here is where the wheraboo part came from.
Then trying to rationalize it to we just dont want protoypes in the game. Wich somehow a single use after prototype stage justyfies another unit such as the st to be in the game. That is quite a stretch imo.

Coh2 is oversaturatted with axis heavies and superheavies as it is. I fear it will happen again but i dont want this in coh3 again.

Also the (very)low produced numbers dont matter in the context of a single game? It should and can be made to matter. Limiting these to one or a few per game or 5/10 minute cooldowns after it gets destroyed would go a long way.
If thats implemeted the bp can stay out as far as i am concerned. Then things come into proper context.

I take comfort in the knowledge that with IR halftracks, IR Rifles that saw limited use and Sturmtigers that have a documented record of being unable to reliably target large structures we didn't need to have historical accuracy police in the COH community. They have however arrived with the Black Prince somehow and that smacks of a bit of irony. Stock King tigers, Invincible Stuka aircraft technology hell on release stock Sturmtigers. These all added up to create interesting German factions across two game as their real world army depiction would be very, horse oriented.

I'm also glad we aren't discussing numbers here as they indeed don't really matter and Relic has lent their ear to the numbers don't matter idea across the franchise history.

If historical accuracy police had existed in COH we would never have had tactically deployed v1 rockets. I mean who knew that they ran out and built the launch ramp so quickly you could launch a V1 on an opponents army that had moved into a new location. These were awesome highly inaccurate moments that i loved about COH, v1 was boss. CoH 2 also saw the removal of the limit of one King Tiger per match which was a ridiculous notion, they are much better represented as a stock unit as they add big flavor.

The Black Prince is simply joining a the COH franchise because its probably pretty boss and fun as all the above items did, regardless of numbers or historical accuracy.

The problem with the black Prince is that it's not an Axis unit.

...
This imo all boils down to only axis can have wunder waffen and big guns. Allies cant period.

...
Coh2 is oversaturatted with axis heavies and superheavies as it is. I fear it will happen again but i dont want this in coh3 again.
...

This not about allies or axis is about prototype units being introduced in the game.

As for for the UKF they do get premium tank and "Big guns" including Comet/Churchill, 25p, 17p as stock and Crocs/AVRE as doctrinal. Now can we get past the allied/axis "grass is greener on the the side of the fence" mentality?

Because it seem that what saying is that BP is ok because it is an allied unit but it would be really "bad" if it was a German unit.

This not about allies or axis is about prototype units being introduced in the game.

As for for the UKF they do get premium tank and "Big guns" including Comet/Churchill, 25p, 17p as stock and Crocs/AVRE as doctrinal. Now can we get past the allied/axis "grass is greener on the the side of the fence" mentality?

Because it seem that what saying is that BP is ok because it is an allied unit but it would be really "bad" if it was a German unit.

I already said i dont mind if they picked a different model off the ones you mentioned before. You know that saw combat. Just the black prince sounds cool and i understand why they choose it. But you may have missed that part.
Axis are already bordering on prototype units with for example the st but i never was against its inclusion even stock. There is not much difference here between them in numbers build and nr off actions.

There never was this level off outrage over other units before. The pershing got some outrage for not fitting in the faction design in coh2.
Now its about a prototype.
None of them complained about the over representation of axis heavies, wich they should do if their logic is consistant.
I am 100% sure that most who fanaticaly dont want the bp added will do a 180° if it was a german prototype.

Yes brits have heavies, there just not played much for a reason. So you dont see their heavies much iff at all. And its mostly just the comet. And some crocodile use.
Axis heavies are more viable and available then most allied heavies. They always have them and even spam them in big games. They mostly have some small drawbacks opposed to major strengths. Therin lies the problem.

I already said i dont mind if they picked a different model off the ones you mentioned before. You know that saw combat. Just the black prince sounds cool and i understand why they choose it. But you may have missed that part.
Axis are already bordering on prototype units with for example the st but i never was against its inclusion even stock. There is not much difference here between them in numbers build and nr off actions.

There never was this level off outrage over other units before. The pershing got some outrage for not fitting in the faction design in coh2.
Now its about a prototype.
None of them complained about the over representation of axis heavies, wich they should do if their logic is consistant.
I am 100% sure that most who fanaticaly dont want the bp added will do a 180° if it was a german prototype.

Yes brits have heavies, there just not played much for a reason. So you dont see their heavies much iff at all. And its mostly just the comet. And some crocodile use.
Axis heavies are more viable and available then most allied heavies. They always have them and even spam them in big games. They mostly have some small drawbacks opposed to major strengths. Therin lies the problem.

It seems to me that you are complaining about balance in COH3 based on balance in COH2...

"Therin lies the problem."

But let keep that you do not necessarily want to the BP to be in game but " they picked a different model off the ones you mentioned before."

I already said i dont mind if they picked a different model off the ones you mentioned before. You know that saw combat. Just the black prince sounds cool and i understand why they choose it. But you may have missed that part.
Axis are already bordering on prototype units with for example the st but i never was against its inclusion even stock. There is not much difference here between them in numbers build and nr off actions.

There never was this level off outrage over other units before. The pershing got some outrage for not fitting in the faction design in coh2.
Now its about a prototype.
None of them complained about the over representation of axis heavies, wich they should do if their logic is consistant.
I am 100% sure that most who fanaticaly dont want the bp added will do a 180° if it was a german prototype.

Yes brits have heavies, there just not played much for a reason. So you dont see their heavies much iff at all. And its mostly just the comet. And some crocodile use.
Axis heavies are more viable and available then most allied heavies. They always have them and even spam them in big games. They mostly have some small drawbacks opposed to major strengths. Therin lies the problem.

I don’t know about others, but if the Soviet Faction is added to the game again and Reliс for some reason wants to add "cool stuff" that was not in the war, for example: T-44, IS-3, ZSU-37, I will be the first one with a pitchfork against this, even though I and crazy in love with these tanks.

It seems to me that you are complaining about balance in COH3 based on balance in COH2...

"Therin lies the problem."

But let keep that you do not necessarily want to the BP to be in game but " they picked a different model off the ones you mentioned before."

Any beefed up churchill in at will do. I am a bit tired off most or all allied heavies being ai focused with limited at power.

I am more worried not neccearely complaining about coh3 balance. It seems coh3 is going down the same path as coh1 and coh2. High input allies vs strong late game axis.
We saw twice how that will end up turning out. Maybe now side armour and maps that actualy allows flanks will make it turn out great. However i am a bit sceptical.

I don’t know about others, but if the Soviet Faction is added to the game again and Reliс for some reason wants to add "cool stuff" that was not in the war, for example: T-44, IS-3, ZSU-37, I will be the first one with a pitchfork against this, even though I and crazy in love with these tanks.

I agree these should not be put in. As they dont look like ww2 tanks they look like cold war tanks wich they are. The black prince still looks like a ww2 tank.