Penals have the worst mainline infantry target size

I was just commenting on him using accuracy. I agree the modifier on its own doesn't say much, I wish there was a way for the game to show what certain increases due such as acc/cooldown/moving acc/reload etc..

There is a away and it is DPS.

However moving on to total DPS, a stationary PF G43 does 9.418 while moving does 8.266 which means almost 88% of total DPS is maintained. Drops to a bit above 86% with VET, giving a quick look no other weapon maintains that level of performance on the move which is why it works so well in blobs.

Total DPS of squad is more relevant than the DPS of half the squad.

Again I am assuming Serelias numbers are accurate.

Should be in this case.

PF are badly designed and so are Penals it is a simply as that.

OKW players literally have Breakthrough/Grand offensive on standby in case someone uses SOV T1, and they also have JLI commanders/Firestorm in case someone plays UKF.I swear playing OKW is literally like being given everything on a silver platter, having commanders/units that completely counter any unit/strat that would otherwise be troublesome or require some skill to beat.

Fusiliers are easy mode vs SOV T1, 6man upgrade with 90% accuracy on the move(something that penals should have considering they don't win long-range fights), beat penals up close whilst having half the number of semiauto rifles etc.

I can't tell if this is a troll post. Do you honestly believe this?

I was just commenting on him using accuracy. I agree the modifier on its own doesn't say much, I wish there was a way for the game to show what certain increases due such as acc/cooldown/moving acc/reload etc..

However moving on to total DPS, a stationary PF G43 does 9.418 while moving does 8.266 which means almost 88% of total DPS is maintained. Drops to a bit above 86% with VET, giving a quick look no other weapon maintains that level of performance on the move which is why it works so well in blobs.

Again I am assuming Serelias numbers are accurate.

I also assume OP has mistaken accuracy for DPS, but as Vipper said even then he is not correct since not all of the models carry G43s.
Just some numbers to get this straight:
- The G43 retains between 86% (close) to 95% (far) of its DPS while moving. Sidenote: Serealia's DPS here is too high, close DPS is 7,4 when static and 6,4 when moving.
- The whole Pfusilier squad retains about 75% (close, static DPS 32,6, moving 24,4) to 73% (far) when moving.

This is WAY higher than most other squads. For comparison: Penal's DPS gets roughly halved (52% to 57%) when moving. Same even with more mobile and aggressive squads like Pgrens (55% to 51%). There are very few other squads that compare or beat Pfusiliers on that, e.g. upgraded Rangers with 90%/78% DPS retention at close/far. However, these squads usually the same weapon on all of their models, making a model loss significantly impact not only total, but also moving DPS. And this is where the most prominent problem of Pfusies kicks in: A moving Pfusilier squad does not lose much DPS for the first 3 model losses. The Kars contribute relatively little DPS on the move, and the G43s are retained and transferred to surviving models. Therefore, there is usually no reason to stop moving for the OKW player when losing models due to the lack of punishment. Pfusies can cross large distances of open terrain on assaults, which is something that no other assault squad can provide that well. That along other factors is why we see blobs of Pfusies mindlessly charging across open field.

- The whole Pfusilier squad retains about 75% (close, static DPS 32,6, moving 24,4) to 73% (far) when moving.

Thanks for providing the stats.

...And this is where the most prominent problem of Pfusies kicks in:...

Yep that is one of the issues. Large squads that do not lose much of their DPS when they lose entities.
(and vice versa see falls/pgs)


(Imo DPS on the move should also be compared in absolute values and not just as percentage.)

There is a away and it is DPS.


Total DPS of squad is more relevant than the DPS of half the squad.



Should be in this case.

PF are badly designed and so are Penals it is a simply as that.

I agree that both are badly designed. In regards to the modifiers I am talking about how each individually impacts DPS. ACC seems to be the most important but how much more important. Using Penals, as the thread is about Penals, how would a VET 2 Penal with 30% ACC/20% cooldown compare to a Commissar buffed Penal Vet0 with 20% ACC/50% cooldown? How would a Vet3 Penal compare to Vet0 Penal with mother Russia? What impact does weapon cooldown have on the different weapon profiles/flamethrower? Having a quick way to check changes would allow for more tactical planning during pushes or allow for better defensive planning.

I also assume OP has mistaken accuracy for DPS, but as Vipper said even then he is not correct since not all of the models carry G43s.
Just some numbers to get this straight:
- The G43 retains between 86% (close) to 95% (far) of its DPS while moving. Sidenote: Serealia's DPS here is too high, close DPS is 7,4 when static and 6,4 when moving.
- The whole Pfusilier squad retains about 75% (close, static DPS 32,6, moving 24,4) to 73% (far) when moving.

This is WAY higher than most other squads. For comparison: Penal's DPS gets roughly halved (52% to 57%) when moving. Same even with more mobile and aggressive squads like Pgrens (55% to 51%). There are very few other squads that compare or beat Pfusiliers on that, e.g. upgraded Rangers with 90%/78% DPS retention at close/far. However, these squads usually the same weapon on all of their models, making a model loss significantly impact not only total, but also moving DPS. And this is where the most prominent problem of Pfusies kicks in: A moving Pfusilier squad does not lose much DPS for the first 3 model losses. The Kars contribute relatively little DPS on the move, and the G43s are retained and transferred to surviving models. Therefore, there is usually no reason to stop moving for the OKW player when losing models due to the lack of punishment. Pfusies can cross large distances of open terrain on assaults, which is something that no other assault squad can provide that well. That along other factors is why we see blobs of Pfusies mindlessly charging across open field.

This is my main issue with mixed model units. Sticking to PF, their DPS retainment along with vision is a bit to much as it allows PF to minimize losses in relation to other assault squads. On paper AssGuards should be better, but since they hit later/have worse vision they can be easily punished.

I agree that both are badly designed. In regards to the modifiers I am talking about how each individually impacts DPS. ACC seems to be the most important but how much more important. Using Penals, as the thread is about Penals, how would a VET 2 Penal with 30% ACC/20% cooldown compare to a Commissar buffed Penal Vet0 with 20% ACC/50% cooldown? How would a Vet3 Penal compare to Vet0 Penal with mother Russia? What impact does weapon cooldown have on the different weapon profiles/flamethrower? Having a quick way to check changes would allow for more tactical planning during pushes or allow for better defensive planning.
...

down load COH2 tools, extract weapon file, and convert to XLS. Then you can change the value you want manually.

Yep that is one of the issues. Large squads that do not lose much of their DPS when they lose entities.
(and vice versa see falls/pgs)

We are describing a different thing. The problem I pointed out is fairly specific to Pfusies: They are not only a large squad, but also carry mixed weapons that concentrate most of their moving DPS on three models. Other squads that focus on assault and moving DPS usually carry fairly homogeneous weapons, meaning that a dropped model strongly translates into less DPS both static and on the move. Therefore, you need to pick your assaults carefully. This is different from what I described above.

(Imo DPS on the move should also be compared in absolute values and not just as percentage.)

Depends what you want to show. The point of this comparison was, that the moving penalty is not as harsh to Pfusies as to many other squads, and this point is most clearly shown by normalizing to the respective static DPS. It obviously assumes some knowledge about the general weapon performance (an SMG retaining 100% moving DPS long range does not mean anything, while a rifle retaining 70% DPS is quite good), but I took this as given knowledge for the discussion. My posts are usually long, if I bloat them with more data, even less people will actually read them.

This is my main issue with mixed model units. Sticking to PF, their DPS retainment along with vision is a bit to much as it allows PF to minimize losses in relation to other assault squads. On paper AssGuards should be better, but since they hit later/have worse vision they can be easily punished.

Pfusies don't really have one issue that absolutely makes them broken, but they combine a ton of features that basically no other squad has, especially not in combination. They are overall very easy to use and countering them takes way more effort than using them. Other squads with mixed weapons such as the Assault Guards that you mentioned have e.g. a clear weakness to vehicles due to the lack of snares. I can even drive an LV into them and expect it to win. If I drive an LV into Pfusies to keep them from closing in, I'll get snared. Same with mediums with either double snare or the omnipresent threat of ATGs

We are describing a different thing...

Imo it is the same thing. DPS drop off from casualties in relationship to model count. The case of PF is simply a subcategory since it affects mostly the moving DPS.
(same can be said for other units like PPsh conscripts, assault guards,..)

One could try to to make the upgrade provide 6 G43s and adjust DPS of the weapon accordingly to smooth out the DPS drop off.

(edited)

I see no reason why they have snares, other than the pfs are meant to be replacement volks bs argument, when they are clearly elite infantry soon as they get g43s. They are only mildy weak first couple engagements and its not like they are not going to make double raketens to follow the PF blob around (and then kt or JagdT) why wouldnt you cant really get to the raketens past the PF blob and they dodge bullets from infantry unlike other at guns anyway. Early light vehicles? Eh you have kubel that can help with UC, brits have no snares early and then super limited the entire game, path spam no snares, usf has to tech firs tto get snares or an at gun. No reason okw woukd have rakentens by then. Half allies light vehicles are at ones anyway, dingo car, stuart. T70 would be only real threat to them.

Them having snares makes using light vehicles and mediums against them extremely difficult asuming they have at least one rak, and cant really use most mediums ideally in closer range where they could do more dps.

Almost +70% dps at vet 3 and double LMG turned them into absolute terminator squads that won every fight with ease to a point where it was hopeless for axis inf. Some people even took that a step further and spammed "For Mother Russia" with then +50% accuracy

The part about them using FMR ontop of the Vickers K is hilarious, but I don't see how that was a overpowered strategy given that you had to be premade for one, have the actual resources to equip 3-4 penals with Vickers would cost 360/480 muni and be a detriment to the UKFs own economy, taking away his attention from the match, and his popcap.

Somehow this was OP yet double vet Obers frontally decrewing my 50.cal in under 3 seconds isn't.Or the fact that those same Obers belong to a faction with a T0 ATG.

I can't tell if this is a troll post. Do you honestly believe this?

What would make this a troll post?Each and every time I attempted to play SOV T1 in 1v1 the OKW player whips out Fusiliers as a crutch so that he doesn't have to micro/use his brain as much like he would have to facing my Penals if he had Volks.

It's literally that simple, Fusiliers are a crutch that OKW players use when they feel like turning off their brain for 30min.Their supposed early game lack of DPS isn't even that noticeable if you just blob them up.Normally a lone Fusilier squad early game without their G43s wouldn't be able to stand up to any other mainline infantry rushing them, making it easy to punish an OKW who built more than 2 Fusiliers, but not even that is a valid tactic if he does what I have already described, they just become the same as Volks DPS wise without the fall-off late game.


Every time I try to play UKF with my 3v3 premade team sub rank 200 an OKW on the opposing side decides to go the easy way and just abuse JLI.I wonder who's idea it was for JLI to be countering an entire faction's playstyle just because OKW players were crying on forums about not being able to compete with UKF before it was nerfed into sorry state it is today.

What would make this a troll post?Each and every time I attempted to play SOV T1 in 1v1 the OKW player whips out Fusiliers as a crutch so that he doesn't have to micro/use his brain as much like he would have to facing my Penals if he had Volks.

It's literally that simple, Fusiliers are a crutch that OKW players use when they feel like turning off their brain for 30min.Their supposed early game lack of DPS isn't even that noticeable if you just blob them up.Normally a lone Fusilier squad early game without their G43s wouldn't be able to stand up to any other mainline infantry rushing them, making it easy to punish an OKW who built more than 2 Fusiliers, but not even that is a valid tactic if he does what I have already described, they just become the same as Volks DPS wise without the fall-off late game.


Every time I try to play UKF with my 3v3 premade team sub rank 200 an OKW on the opposing side decides to go the easy way and just abuse JLI.I wonder who's idea it was for JLI to be countering an entire faction's playstyle just because OKW players were crying on forums about not being able to compete with UKF before it was nerfed into sorry state it is today.

They really aren't. I think there's definitely an argument to made that they have too much utility built in to their kit, but that's a different conversation.

In a 1v1 you should be able to completely bully them with penals in the early game. Once they get their upgrades it becomes a lot closer, obviously they're much better on the move and up close, but penals do pretty well against them at range. You also have the freedom to build a sniper, which the OKW player will have no reliable counter for if he goes fusiliers. Neither of these units even require you to commit to a specific doctrine.

I can understand them being difficult to deal with in giant blobs in larger game modes, but in 1v1 they have pretty clear weaknesess. Soviets are probably OKW's toughest matchup.

They really aren't. I think there's definitely an argument to made that they have too much utility built in to their kit, but that's a different conversation.

In a 1v1 you should be able to completely bully them with penals in the early game. Once they get their upgrades it becomes a lot closer, obviously they're much better on the move and up close, but penals do pretty well against them at range. You also have the freedom to build a sniper, which the OKW player will have no reliable counter for if he goes fusiliers. Neither of these units even require you to commit to a specific doctrine.

I can understand them being difficult to deal with in giant blobs in larger game modes, but in 1v1 they have pretty clear weaknesess. Soviets are probably OKW's toughest matchup.

According to serelia they do similar damage at max range and both units have similar target size. I also tend to use snipers as you suggested but that falls off once recon packages and flares come online. As they are 6 man squads with concentrated DPS they can take the model drops and push towards the sniper for a retreat. At high vet they even get sprint which means a late retreat is most likely a death due to the excellent moving DPS. As others have said it requires a lot more work to counter than to use. I personally find it easier to skip the car, go 3 Penals into Guards/Airborne LMG and punish them that way.

Just a side note Penals DPS and target size are wrong on serelia. They didn’t update it after march 2021. Also according to Hannibal the PF close range DPS is a bit high don’t know if that applies to long range.

According to serelia they do similar damage at max range and both units have similar target size. I also tend to use snipers as you suggested but that falls off once recon packages and flares come online. As they are 6 man squads with concentrated DPS they can take the model drops and push towards the sniper for a retreat. At high vet they even get sprint which means a late retreat is most likely a death due to the excellent moving DPS. As others have said it requires a lot more work to counter than to use. I personally find it easier to skip the car, go 3 Penals into Guards/Airborne LMG and punish them that way.

Just a side note Penals DPS and target size are wrong on serelia. They didn’t update it after march 2021. Also according to Hannibal the PF close range DPS is a bit high don’t know if that applies to long range.

I mean, obviously you would do your best to support the sniper and punish them when this happens. Don't get me wrong, Fussies definitely are not a weak unit, they have huge amounts of utility, great scaling and your point about them being incredibly easy to use for what they give you is valid. I just don't agree with the hysterical claims about them and OKW supposidly countering everything.

According to serelia they do similar damage at max range and both units have similar target size. I also tend to use snipers as you suggested but that falls off once recon packages and flares come online. As they are 6 man squads with concentrated DPS they can take the model drops and push towards the sniper for a retreat. At high vet they even get sprint which means a late retreat is most likely a death due to the excellent moving DPS. As others have said it requires a lot more work to counter than to use. I personally find it easier to skip the car, go 3 Penals into Guards/Airborne LMG and punish them that way.

Just a side note Penals DPS and target size are wrong on serelia. They didn’t update it after march 2021. Also according to Hannibal the PF close range DPS is a bit high don’t know if that applies to long range.

1) Sprint comes at vet 5 which usually is very late in the game, if a sniper has survived that long it has probably paid off the investment

2) Sprint disables weapon the is no synergy with the "excellent moving DPS"

The part about them using FMR ontop of the Vickers K is hilarious, but I don't see how that was a overpowered strategy given that you had to be premade for one

They melted through vet 5 obers with 3-4 models remaining, that's how busted it was

1) Sprint comes at vet 5 which usually is very late in the game, if a sniper has survived that long it has probably paid off the investment

2) Sprint disables weapon the is no synergy with the "excellent moving DPS"

While Sprint disable weapon, it get you into position a lot quicker to try and take those higher damage shots vs trying to fight at max range. Also during late game there is much more going on which means a quick sprint into position can be quite punishing in regards to AI and AT. Personally, I find G43 across both factions as harder to deal with since you can keep the squad run'n and gun'n to try and get the sniper. Whereas LMG Grens, PG and Volks aren't to good at the chase.

I agree with your first statement somewhat. Again, a blob pushing forward will quickly force a Sniper retreat which can heavily reduce the snipers performance. But, like you said Sprint is fairly late game so one would hope that by that point your sniper has paid itself off.

EDIT: expanded first point

I mean, obviously you would do your best to support the sniper and punish them when this happens. Don't get me wrong, Fussies definitely are not a weak unit, they have huge amounts of utility, great scaling and your point about them being incredibly easy to use for what they give you is valid. I just don't agree with the hysterical claims about them and OKW supposidly countering everything.

I can only speak for myself but fussies are why I stopped playing 1v1. Against OST, you would sometimes see different strats even if they didn't deviate from meta to much. But OKW players would literally pick fussies every game, I would get excited to see Falls/JLI/221. As I try to avoid using reg Guards as much as possible, my only long range option is Airborne. I love the commanders but it gets boring playing the same way each game.

I do understand from the OKW side as fussies provide the techless nade, so it puts a stop to clowncar shenanigans but it does get to be a chore trying to outplay a unit with so many strengths that also come in good commanders that also can get OBER back up if they lose any squads.

They melted through vet 5 obers with 3-4 models remaining, that's how busted it was

And Obers do this to every other infantry unit in the game, including the "effective anti-infantry squad" the Penals are said to be.

It's only ever a issue if Allies have broken infantry melting everyone else I see.How has this community accepted the state of this game where Obers can frontally decrew "aggressive HMGs" like the 50.cal in under 2.5 seconds and regularly win 1v2 engagement just because Volks fall off mid game?

I don't see any justification for a squad of infantry being this dominant in any engagement that doesn't involve getting bullied by vehicles or hosed down by two HMGs?

I consistently have to build a Sniper in team games for Obers to just not overrun my infantry whilst moving towards me like a CQC squad would.