Pioneer combat strength early game

There is no issue with pioneers.

They are decent at the beginning, but fall flat on their face quickly. Spamming them is not viable, nor is even building a second one in the early game unless you're trying some odd double MG/double pio stall for PGrens.
In a normal build, you'll pay for it once LVs arrive until the mid game where you can finally use the increased repairs for your medium tank.

This overall sounds like a fair trade off to me, let them have their chance to shine.

I tested it out. It's basically that echelon are so criminally bad at combat, that you can basically ignore them as their DPS is laughable. Even at 10 range, Pios have 55% more DPS than echelon. Tested out Rifles + Combat engineers (soviet). Pios get wrecked. Tested out rifles + vehicle crew... pios lose hard. Basically, RE is completely useless in combat until you invest 100 munitions into them, at which point they can be used as a vehicle deterrent. Or you could use the volley fire and delay the weapon upgrades a bit. And I wouldn't call them useless later on. Not only can they repair tanks quite fast, they do get the flamers and they can plant mines. Double Pio with MG42s can easily stand up to anything in 3v3s. Mostly due to map designs. Tightrope even showed the power of double pio into PGrens power.

So all in all. The fight should say "Rifles" vs double Pios. Rifles + Rear Echelon = Rifles -> Rear Echelon = 0 iff Rifles =/= 0

I tested it out. It's basically that echelon are so criminally bad at combat, that you can basically ignore them as their DPS is laughable. Even at 10 range, Pios have 55% more DPS than echelon. Tested out Rifles + Combat engineers (soviet). Pios get wrecked. Tested out rifles + vehicle crew... pios lose hard. Basically, RE is completely useless in combat until you invest 100 munitions into them, at which point they can be used as a vehicle deterrent. Or you could use the volley fire and delay the weapon upgrades a bit. And I wouldn't call them useless later on. Not only can they repair tanks quite fast, they do get the flamers and they can plant mines. Double Pio with MG42s can easily stand up to anything in 3v3s. Mostly due to map designs. Tightrope even showed the power of double pio into PGrens power.

So all in all. The fight should say "Rifles" vs double Pios. Rifles + Rear Echelon = Rifles -> Rear Echelon = 0 iff Rifles =/= 0

I think against pios REs are even worse. At range 10, Pioneer DPS is about 80% higher. What you probably meant is that REs have 55% the DPS. As you said, they somehow have to be due to bazookas and their fifth man. Their odd veterancy actually helps in that regard.

Res are best against the Kubelwagen were the low accuracy does not matter. Otherwise, they don't add an awful lot. They are the only squad that I don't rebuild if I see that my enemy is not using mines

There is no issue with pioneers.

They are decent at the beginning, but fall flat on their face quickly. Spamming them is not viable, nor is even building a second one in the early game unless you're trying some odd double MG/double pio stall for PGrens.
In a normal build, you'll pay for it once LVs arrive until the mid game where you can finally use the increased repairs for your medium tank.

This overall sounds like a fair trade off to me, let them have their chance to shine.

I am actually seeing that strat quite often in 3v3. Double Pio/2 MG/PG into halftrack, can be quite powerful early on against CONS/RIFLES/IS. IF they get your fuel cutoff LV play becomes irrelevant. It is fun to play against if slightly frustrating due to PG powerspike but it is better than seeing the same thing every game.

Shouldn't pios also suck ass too then? If nothing else why do they need 42 sight and decent combat ability, while the other squads do nothing without upgrades.

They do suck ass at combat except when ambushing at point blank range. Royal engineers are only 10mp more but come with more dps and better vet, more survivability with 5 man, etc. Nobody is complaining that royal engineers do too much damage though, only pios because they compare them to the literal worst squad in the game. All the engineers are fine and are pretty balanced within their factions. Looking at a 1:1 comparison in combat stats between these utility squads is a bit silly.

They do suck ass at combat except when ambushing at point blank range. Royal engineers are only 10mp more but come with more dps and better vet, more survivability with 5 man, etc. Nobody is complaining that royal engineers do too much damage though, only pios because they compare them to the literal worst squad in the game. All the engineers are fine and are pretty balanced within their factions. Looking at a 1:1 comparison in combat stats between these utility squads is a bit silly.

Well. To be frank. Royal engineers have the snare, and in one tech line, they are designed around the offensive play (anvil). So, they are more of an assault squad than a true engineer. But the whole brit faction is funny as hell so...

Meanwhile Sturmpioneer in the corner reading this thread: *sweats*

RE is indeed trash, but that's because ppl abused it to hell & back. And thus here we are, with USF early game balance.

The only nerf pioneers need is to remove the 42 sight range

Wehr has no early game weakness, so the pioneer gives an artificial advantage because you can scout incoming mainline (except paths) before they see you, letting you prepare better for incoming attacks, and additionally safely scout for MGs


and additionally pio vision is useful if one plans to do team weapons cancer spam, removing it would at least weaken this brainless tactic

Meanwhile Sturmpioneer in the corner reading this thread: *sweats*

RE is indeed trash, but that's because ppl abused it to hell & back. And thus here we are, with USF early game balance.

Yeah. Still, leaving them in tatters was not the best of moves. Spios are fine. 300 MP, 4 man engineer squad that melts. Expensive and dangerous. Nothing wrong with that. Fact is that pios are not really the strong ones, but REs are useless. Literally like having no squad at all. Well, they can capture territory, so there's that. And the tank traps, if well placed can actually be better than the sandbags due to their survivability. But still, no proper mines, extremely weak early game, veterancy that can only really be acquired with zooks, or in 1v1 with LMGs. If a miracle happens and COH3 is a success and Relic decides to give a gift of a balance patch to the COH2 community (hardly that the COH2 community will die with COH3 release), I would like to see a removal of volley fire in a muni starved faction, more XP for vet1 and a buff to close-mid range performance

They do suck ass at combat except when ambushing at point blank range. Royal engineers are only 10mp more but come with more dps and better vet, more survivability with 5 man, etc. Nobody is complaining that royal engineers do too much damage though, only pios because they compare them to the literal worst squad in the game. All the engineers are fine and are pretty balanced within their factions. Looking at a 1:1 comparison in combat stats between these utility squads is a bit silly.

No one cares about RoyalEs because by the time the UKF player actually builds them, the timing where pioneers are good is past. You'd see more complaining about them if brits started with them and they had 42 sight for whatever reason.

pios aren't out here 1v1ing para's, but the fact that they can handily beat REs and CEs while providing better utility and defense than those squads is stupid.

No one cares about RoyalEs because by the time the UKF player actually builds them, the timing where pioneers are good is past. You'd see more complaining about them if brits started with them and they had 42 sight for whatever reason.

pios aren't out here 1v1ing para's, but the fact that they can handily beat REs and CEs while providing better utility and defense than those squads is stupid.

CE are far more useful in combat than Pioneers with flamers, rifles that actually contribute damage when using flamers and merge, while being cheaper.

The "combat effectiveness" of pioneers is simply exaggerated in the thread with things that would simply not take place in a game in most cases.

The best "combat use" pioneer is to offer support to HMGs and that is just fine and in line with faction design of "combined arms"

The only nerf pioneers need is to remove the 42 sight range

Wehr has no early game weakness, so the pioneer gives an artificial advantage because you can scout incoming mainline (except paths) before they see you, letting you prepare better for incoming attacks, and additionally safely scout for MGs


and additionally pio vision is useful if one plans to do team weapons cancer spam, removing it would at least weaken this brainless tactic

why do you alliedcucks always piss the same nonsense about early game wehr?

Especially you my dear friend. This specific drivel of yours has been posted at least 120 times in 120 different posts that even go near the matter of Wehr.

L2P or start maining axis if they're so much better than you say.

Yeah. Still, leaving them in tatters was not the best of moves. Spios are fine. 300 MP, 4 man engineer squad that melts. Expensive and dangerous. Nothing wrong with that. Fact is that pios are not really the strong ones, but REs are useless. Literally like having no squad at all. Well, they can capture territory, so there's that. And the tank traps, if well placed can actually be better than the sandbags due to their survivability. But still, no proper mines, extremely weak early game, veterancy that can only really be acquired with zooks, or in 1v1 with LMGs. If a miracle happens and COH3 is a success and Relic decides to give a gift of a balance patch to the COH2 community (hardly that the COH2 community will die with COH3 release), I would like to see a removal of volley fire in a muni starved faction, more XP for vet1 and a buff to close-mid range performance

Good points. The thing with RearCuckSquads as someone has previously mentioned was that they were so absolutely spammed when they were in their prime time that not only did they get absolutely melted during the subsequent patches but also have come to a place where nobody will really touch them since "they were OP, look what happened then".

Decent post with decent points, but I doubt they can be alleviated right now.

If another patch is coming, and that's a big if, you should count on Pathspamming being tuned down, making the sniper an upgrade with muni, and making their callin time to 1cp.

That's to say, I do not see such a fix for REs coming soon, even If I think they do need it.

How about if USF started with a Riflemen and -80mp instead? Like Brits, starting with a mainline isn't the craziest idea.

How about if USF started with a Riflemen and -80mp instead? Like Brits, starting with a mainline isn't the craziest idea.

Lol yes, let me USF early game OP as solution. USF starts with 400mp, -80 would do nothing.

Starting with Rifles would be too much. USF would be extremely strong that way in the early game.

Yeah. Still, leaving them in tatters was not the best of moves. Spios are fine. 300 MP, 4 man engineer squad that melts. Expensive and dangerous. Nothing wrong with that. Fact is that pios are not really the strong ones, but REs are useless. Literally like having no squad at all. Well, they can capture territory, so there's that. And the tank traps, if well placed can actually be better than the sandbags due to their survivability. But still, no proper mines, extremely weak early game, veterancy that can only really be acquired with zooks, or in 1v1 with LMGs. If a miracle happens and COH3 is a success and Relic decides to give a gift of a balance patch to the COH2 community (hardly that the COH2 community will die with COH3 release), I would like to see a removal of volley fire in a muni starved faction, more XP for vet1 and a buff to close-mid range performance

I thought I should check the data before I posted and it turns out RE DPS is comparable to CE, getting better at close range. Main difference is that they don't have a flamethrower of course and the moving accuracy is 0.25 vs 0.5 for CE. Show Spoiler RE are clearly not meant to be firing on the move in any situation. They're both terrible against mainlines and bad vs pioneers (say your prayers against SP) but idk what to suggest. Maybe your suggested change would help, but needs to be carefully scaled. Volley fire doesn't really do much even in the best situation (even volks will eventually get up and shoot you in the face) and the suppressed squad has 50% RA vs most small arms(?) so it can work against you.



But I think this whole business is part of a wider issue of USF needing a rework I think. I'll admit their early game is pretty unpleasant to play and mortar is a must get vs OST or just get memed by 2 x MG42 openers.

I thought I should check the data before I posted and it turns out RE DPS is comparable to CE, getting better at close range. Main difference is that they don't have a flamethrower of course and the moving accuracy is 0.25 vs 0.5 for CE. Show Spoiler

RE are clearly not meant to be firing on the move in any situation. They're both terrible against mainlines and bad vs pioneers (say your prayers against SP) but idk what to suggest. Maybe your suggested change would help, but needs to be carefully scaled. Volley fire doesn't really do much even in the best situation (even volks will eventually get up and shoot you in the face) and the suppressed squad has 50% RA vs most small arms(?) so it can work against you.



But I think this whole business is part of a wider issue of USF needing a rework I think. I'll admit their early game is pretty unpleasant to play and mortar is a must get vs OST or just get memed by 2 x MG42 openers.

In this case the DPS is a wrong stat. Carbines fire much faster. Just check the damage and accuracy near/mid/far of RE carbine and CE mosin. Mosin deals 12 dmg and it's accuracy is:
near 0.76
mid 0.66
far 0.56

RE carbine is 8dmg with:
0.51
0.35
0.27

CEs will always kill at least one model of most approaching infantry and just duke it out from there. CEs keep firing and firing and they end up with 0 dmg on approach and instead pray that 0.51 close range is RNG favoured.
Hence why the DPS is not a good metric in this case. Carbines just fire faster, but with the low damage and sh*t accuracy, the RoF does not help in any way except mathematically on a graph. Also, I think that DPS graph is wrong. An analogy would be: It's better to focus one squad at a time than just A-move. Spreading out damage on other models/infantry means that they stay alive longer, and damage you back more.
Tested it. CEs in green cover easily win against approaching grens, pios and volks. Lose to approaching Spios. Of course, nobody in their right mind would rush with grens or volks, but it's there to prove a point.
REs behind same green cover lose terribly to all.

I would like to see the damage of Rear Echelon Carbine go down.

So instead of 8 damage, it would be 4-6 but it would come with a huge accuracy buff.

Far 0.75
Mid 0.55
Near 0.46

They need to do reliable damage instead of the current lottery system that they have now where they might hit an enemy squad once every 10 seconds of firing.

CE are far more useful in combat than Pioneers with flamers, rifles that actually contribute damage when using flamers and merge, while being cheaper.

The "combat effectiveness" of pioneers is simply exaggerated in the thread with things that would simply not take place in a game in most cases.

The best "combat use" pioneer is to offer support to HMGs and that is just fine and in line with faction design of "combined arms"

No doubt ce's with flamer are very good but how is 170mp and 60 muni cheaper then 200mp pio,s? Merge isent free as well for it to work the cons and flamer ce need to be in the same place.

Pio's combat effectiness is indeed exgagerated. But not to be underestimated.

Their increased vision should be either tied to tech or be a upgrade. Ce's dont start with flamer and dont effect the game from minute 0. The pio vision currently gives ost a slight advantidge they shoudnt have so early on.

No doubt ce's with flamer are very good but how is 170mp and 60 muni cheaper then 200mp pio,s? Merge isent free as well for it to work the cons and flamer ce need to be in the same place.

Pio's combat effectiness is indeed exgagerated. But not to be underestimated.

Their increased vision should be either tied to tech or be a upgrade. Ce's dont start with flamer and dont effect the game from minute 0. The pio vision currently gives ost a slight advantidge they shoudnt have so early on.

Never said that flamer CE are cheaper than Pioneers. As you have pointed out CE with MP cost 170 are cheaper than Pioneers at cost of 200mp.