dont allow the ambulance to reinforce from minute 0 and this alone would help solve the paths problem, no need to nerf anything else. ambo Reinforce can be unlocked through tech to delay early aggressive ambo.
Would be nice if rear echelons got a long range DPS buff so they can synergize better with riflemen builds and support riflemen more effectively early on (like volks and sturms).
USF has good units but they seem less diverse compared to other factions making them boring and predictable
USF Pathfinder spam is too efficient (2v2)
13 Apr 2022, 15:56 PM
#161
Posts: 808
13 Apr 2022, 16:05 PM
#162
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
You are leaving out a decent amount of relevant information.
not really I was responding to claim that USF need more long oriented infantry.
1. LMG commanders provide only 1 LMG at CP3 to a short range focused squad vs a long range focused squad that is cheaper and upgrades earlier.
...
Grenadier can upgrade with 1 weapon, Riflemen can upgrade with 1 LMG +1 BAR
Riflemen are NOT a sort range focus squad those are SMG squads
13 Apr 2022, 17:21 PM
#163
Posts: 1289
Only you have not really provided anything to establish the USF "dependence" and in the end of the day it does not really prove much.
One can easily claim that Ostheer are "depended" on Jaeger armor since it is the most popular commander in 4vs4 by far.
If your theory held any truth, UKF who are also long oriented, can build sandbag and can selfheal from start and have the no bleed UC would be "dictating the fight" but they simply do not.
We are not dicussing ost commanders.
Stretching the issue so far until it breaks wont help. A commander just in 4v4 games on a faction that is beter designed is a poor comparisson to make.
Ukf has things making simaler things such as long range weaker, the upfront and total cost is higher to get going, they need to hug cover to even get the max out of their long range. The uc doesnt get 50 vision out of the gate and it cant cap. But the healing blob is to strong i agree.
13 Apr 2022, 17:35 PM
#164
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
We are not dicussing ost commanders.
We are not discussing commander period the thread is about Pathfinders but that is rather rich coming from you. You brought Soviet commander into this thread but somehow OStheer commander are off Topic. Right...
Stretching the issue so far until it breaks wont help. A commander just in 4v4 games on a faction that is better designed is a poor comparisson to make.
You started and continued the commander dependence thing, not me I have posted about Pathfinders ambulance Scott and mortars. I suggest you return to those things.
A commander being popular does necessarily translates that the faction a weak and need an OP commander to win, it is as simply as that.
Ukf has things making simaler things such as long range weaker, the upfront and total cost is higher to get going, they need to hug cover to even get the max out of their long range. The uc doesnt get 50 vision out of the gate and it cant cap. But the healing blob is to strong i agree.
I have simply pointed the flaws in your theory about dictating the fight.
13 Apr 2022, 20:49 PM
#165
Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1
Ideal fix would be to remove pioneer extra vision. It was given when Ostheer was in a really bad position but today it doesn't make anymore sense for them having such free ability on cheap starting unit.
Then removing every vision range abilities given to any unit that isn't a reco unit. Tanks and infantry alike. Keeping only the historical scope for Ostheer since it already come with a downside.
Then removing the weapon slot on Path.
In 2vs2 you must pick pathfinder because your opponent's doctrines of choice give extra vision to their tanks and infantry when they themselves aren't already picking JLIs.
How are you supposed to fight a P4/P5/Tiger when it has more armor, more vision and more penetration + arty barrage in bonus.
A KT that have incendiary round + extra vision
A Tiger ACE that can self-repair and extra vision
Command Panther that have extra vision
etc...
Well you pick a unit that also provides you vision.
Amen! At some point the go-to to buffing any under used unit or doctrine was to give it extra sight. I'm personally still fine with the Pioneer vision since it's not as large as Pathfinder/JLI sight and beyond the early game Pioneers are on repair duty the vast majority of the time so it's harder to really utilize the slightly higher than normal extra sight. Self-spotting combat units are just such an insane force multiplier and really makes life easier...
14 Apr 2022, 02:28 AM
#166
Posts: 307
(edited typo)
my 2 cent about this:
- Airbrone always a top 1 pick of USF is an fact no matter Path, scout or what ever USF change. (1)
- from Jan 2021 to July 2021 (until last balance patch drop). USF still stay about 45~47% winrate in 2v2. and yet I found no path spam meta on top 100 to top 10 2v2 game. (2)
- Thing change after July 2021 and before Inka 4v4 tournament: winrate now around 47-50%. Path meta still not swarm orver the place.(3)
- After Inka 4v4 tournament and another 2v2 event. Thing get worse. Now winrate is around 49-52%. I guess people can learn from the best. (4).
- Last one is Scout change in last balance patch. In short. New Scott give path a chance to freely choose BAR - Zoo depend on sistuation. New barrage combine with bulletin/ vision and crital strike is final puzzle for USF lategame. (5).
From (1) to (5): I had to say, nerf path or scout cant change the fact that Airbrone is the best choice for USF... No matter how you nerf them, people still go for it, pick path, air drop weapon and try to win as fast at they can.
14 Apr 2022, 06:26 AM
#167
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
Amen! At some point the go-to to buffing any under used unit or doctrine was to give it extra sight. I'm personally still fine with the Pioneer vision since it's not as large as Pathfinder/JLI sight and beyond the early game Pioneers are on repair duty the vast majority of the time so it's harder to really utilize the slightly higher than normal extra sight. Self-spotting combat units are just such an insane force multiplier and really makes life easier...
You know what's funny?
16 may 2018
Jackson
We are removing the M36’s extra sight bonuses. The Jackson will still be an effective tank destroyer due to its high mobility, penetration, range and damage.
• Sight reduced from 40 to 35
• Veterancy 2 sight bonus removed
Only to then give an even better ability to OKW 6 months later
20 Novembre 2018
Panzer Commander
This upgrade has been adjusted to allow tanks to spot targets from further away and improve combat performance. The Artillery Barrage has also been adjusted so its shells arrive sooner.
CP Requirement from 8 to 5.
Sight bonus from 6 to 10
Coordinated Barrage delay from 5 to 0
Coordinated Barrage cost from 120 to 80
Coordinated Barrage range from 35 to 45
Now increases main gun accuracy by 10%.
What's too good for USF is never enough for OKW I guess. What do you see today in 2vs2? Only doctrines having such sight range bonus or JLI/pfuss. But hey the problem are pathfinders!!.
Earlier this week I was watching Dirty_finisher being completely impotente with 2 Jacksons / 2 Shermans vs a single Tiger Ace + 2 paks. He literally couldn't see his enemy will the other was sniping his Jacksons from the fog of war.
What was his options: a M20 that would be 2 shots by the paks and Tiger? or the Major with vet1 that would be 1 shot by the Tiger?
14 Apr 2022, 09:31 AM
#168
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
You know what's funny?
16 may 2018
Only to then give an even better ability to OKW 6 months later
20 Novembre 2018
What's too good for USF is never enough for OKW I guess. What do you see today in 2vs2? Only doctrines having such sight range bonus or JLI/pfuss. But hey the problem are pathfinders!!.
Dude... those changes you quote date back to almost 4 years ago (judging by the timestamps you kindly provided) when USF, and Jacksons in particular, were in a totally different state. Not to mention the fact that Panzer Commander isn't free and literally locks you out of a crucial AI upgrade on top of being doctrinal. A bit of a lopsided argument if you ask me...
Anyway, the point EtherealDragon made about self-spotting combat units is IMHO a good one. JLI/PF and possibly some other recon options as well should probably not provide so much sight on the move but instead only do so when stationary or in cover. With this they could still be potent recon assets when used defensively, but not outright invalidate defensive MG or AT gun positioning by themselves while on the offense.
||| ScatterThis! - Tank AI calculation made easy ||| CoH2 Pen Calc - Tank vs tank... who wins against who and by what margin? |||
14 Apr 2022, 10:15 AM
#169
Posts: 770
Dude... those changes you quote date back to almost 4 years ago (judging by the timestamps you kindly provided) when USF, and Jacksons in particular, were in a totally different state. Not to mention the fact that Panzer Commander isn't free and literally locks you out of a crucial AI upgrade on top of being doctrinal. A bit of a lopsided argument if you ask me...
Anyway, the point EtherealDragon made about self-spotting combat units is IMHO a good one. JLI/PF and possibly some other recon options as well should probably not provide so much sight on the move but instead only do so when stationary or in cover. With this they could still be potent recon assets when used defensively, but not outright invalidate defensive MG or AT gun positioning by themselves while on the offense.
Why get these units in the first place then? they cannot be potent recon assets if they need to be in cover. thats a false statement.
14 Apr 2022, 10:20 AM
#170
Posts: 786 | Subs: 1
. Not to mention the fact that Panzer Commander isn't free and literally locks you out of a crucial AI upgrade on top of being doctrinal. A bit of a lopsided argument if you ask me...
Anyway, the point EtherealDragon made about self-spotting combat units is IMHO a good one. JLI/PF and possibly some other recon options as well should probably not provide so much sight on the move but instead only do so when stationary or in cover. With this they could still be potent recon assets when used defensively, but not outright invalidate defensive MG or AT gun positioning by themselves while on the offense.
panzer commander is far from a weak ability and it compensates the lack of an MG by having an artillery strike that forces relocations of AT walls (or wipes them)
regardless stationary vision would not exactly fix the issue but it would certainly help to make them not as easy to use to their full effect
the coh2.org forum experience:
14 Apr 2022, 11:48 AM
#171
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
Dude... those changes you quote date back to almost 4 years ago (judging by the timestamps you kindly provided) when USF, and Jacksons in particular, were in a totally different state. Not to mention the fact that Panzer Commander isn't free and literally locks you out of a crucial AI upgrade on top of being doctrinal. A bit of a lopsided argument if you ask me...
Anyway, the point EtherealDragon made about self-spotting combat units is IMHO a good one. JLI/PF and possibly some other recon options as well should probably not provide so much sight on the move but instead only do so when stationary or in cover. With this they could still be potent recon assets when used defensively, but not outright invalidate defensive MG or AT gun positioning by themselves while on the offense.
Stationary vision for infantry has always been bugged back in time when Riflemen had it in I-dont-remember-which-doctrine. O maybe it was also because they needed to be in heavy cover but from memories it was unusable.
Then about your statement there is something you're eluding: where we are today is the result of a journey. Modding team's journey in command of balance and the many issues we face today are the result of accumulation of bad decision making over the past years they've been in charge. So maybe en 2018 this stupidity wasn't an issue because the game was more balanced but today we reached the point where this accumulation birth the reason of this topic.
But in reality I just pointed out the inconsistency in their decision making, same as the damage reduction removed from Ranger and then 3/6 months later given to Gren. Too good for USF but never enough for some other factions. Guess what, people don't use ranger anymore they get shredded by tanks, Path and Scott/jackson all the way now.
14 Apr 2022, 15:08 PM
#172
Posts: 770
panzer commander is far from a weak ability and it compensates the lack of an MG by having an artillery strike that forces relocations of AT walls (or wipes them)
regardless stationary vision would not exactly fix the issue but it would certainly help to make them not as easy to use to their full effect
Its not weak but its not strong either. and you do miss out on a lot of AI dps if you for panzer commander
14 Apr 2022, 16:32 PM
#173
Posts: 1289
We are not discussing commander period the thread is about Pathfinders but that is rather rich coming from you. You brought Soviet commander into this thread but somehow OStheer commander are off Topic. Right...
i just did what you normaly do. Worked like a charm.
You started and continued the commander dependence thing, not me I have posted about Pathfinders ambulance Scott and mortars. I suggest you return to those things.
A commander being popular does necessarily translates that the faction a weak and need an OP commander to win, it is as simply as that.
i 100% agree with the later part, it doesnt neccesarely mean that indeed. But you seem to be very strongly opinionated that its absolutly not the case with usf and path commander. In 1v1 (wich you focus on too much) as you state usf seems fine, but in 4v4 its not the case at all imo.
I have simply pointed the flaws in your theory about dictating the fight.
you are free to have your opinion on that. I will leave it at that
14 Apr 2022, 17:59 PM
#174
Posts: 469
Put pathfinder vision and sniper behind officer + tech.
Problem sovled
Problem sovled
14 Apr 2022, 18:10 PM
#175
Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1
Why get these units in the first place then? they cannot be potent recon assets if they need to be in cover. thats a false statement.
Uh, what? People do not get Fusies/JLI because they are a Recon Asset... they get them because
1. Minute 0 Snares
2. Longer Range Snares
3. Insane Moving Accuracy/DPS that dumbs down micro
4. For JLI - single handedly wrecking Sections or winning Green Cover Fights
- Bonus for being in Commander with the best off map skill planes.
5. Both are great Sniper hunters due to sniping, cloak, or running and gunning with Fusies
I'm probably forgetting things. Any nerf to sight bonuses wouldn't make them unusable in the least. The sight bonus is literally a huge scoop of cherries on top.
Oh yeah... Fusies have Flares (that rarely need used because they have good sight stock with G43s).
14 Apr 2022, 19:28 PM
#177
Posts: 658
You know what's funny?
16 may 2018
Only to then give an even better ability to OKW 6 months later
20 Novembre 2018
What's too good for USF is never enough for OKW I guess. What do you see today in 2vs2? Only doctrines having such sight range bonus or JLI/pfuss. But hey the problem are pathfinders!!.
Earlier this week I was watching Dirty_finisher being completely impotente with 2 Jacksons / 2 Shermans vs a single Tiger Ace + 2 paks. He literally couldn't see his enemy will the other was sniping his Jacksons from the fog of war.
What was his options: a M20 that would be 2 shots by the paks and Tiger? or the Major with vet1 that would be 1 shot by the Tiger?
King Tiger with Panzer Commander and Vet 1 can see half the map. I have been saying for a while now that they need even access to vision across all factions.
15 Apr 2022, 01:42 AM
#178
Posts: 682
King Tiger with Panzer Commander and Vet 1 can see half the map. I have been saying for a while now that they need even access to vision across all factions.
End game vetted 720mp 270 fuel unit with a doctrinal upgrade can see as far as a 280mp tier 0 doctrinal 0cp unit, fair comparison
/s
15 Apr 2022, 02:08 AM
#179
Posts: 62
dont allow the ambulance to reinforce from minute 0 and this alone would help solve the paths problem, no need to nerf anything else. ambo Reinforce can be unlocked through tech to delay early aggressive ambo.
Would be nice if rear echelons got a long range DPS buff so they can synergize better with riflemen builds and support riflemen more effectively early on (like volks and sturms).
USF has good units but they seem less diverse compared to other factions making them boring and predictable
Ambo is expensive compared to other healing units, costing almost as much as riflemen and 10 fuel, if this is viable, then the ambulance cost should be reduced
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