USF Pathfinder spam is too efficient (2v2)

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2022, 14:53 PMrumartinez89

You are leaving out a decent amount of relevant information.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2022, 14:53 PMrumartinez89

1. LMG commanders provide only 1 LMG at CP3 to a short range focused squad vs a long range focused squad that is cheaper and upgrades earlier.
...

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2022, 08:18 AMVipper

Only you have not really provided anything to establish the USF "dependence" and in the end of the day it does not really prove much.

One can easily claim that Ostheer are "depended" on Jaeger armor since it is the most popular commander in 4vs4 by far.


If your theory held any truth, UKF who are also long oriented, can build sandbag and can selfheal from start and have the no bleed UC would be "dictating the fight" but they simply do not.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2022, 17:21 PMMr Carmine

We are not dicussing ost commanders.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2022, 17:21 PMMr Carmine

Stretching the issue so far until it breaks wont help. A commander just in 4v4 games on a faction that is better designed is a poor comparisson to make.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2022, 17:21 PMMr Carmine

Ukf has things making simaler things such as long range weaker, the upfront and total cost is higher to get going, they need to hug cover to even get the max out of their long range. The uc doesnt get 50 vision out of the gate and it cant cap. But the healing blob is to strong i agree.

Jump back to quoted post12 Apr 2022, 19:17 PMEsxile

Ideal fix would be to remove pioneer extra vision. It was given when Ostheer was in a really bad position but today it doesn't make anymore sense for them having such free ability on cheap starting unit.
Then removing every vision range abilities given to any unit that isn't a reco unit. Tanks and infantry alike. Keeping only the historical scope for Ostheer since it already come with a downside.
Then removing the weapon slot on Path.

In 2vs2 you must pick pathfinder because your opponent's doctrines of choice give extra vision to their tanks and infantry when they themselves aren't already picking JLIs.
How are you supposed to fight a P4/P5/Tiger when it has more armor, more vision and more penetration + arty barrage in bonus.
A KT that have incendiary round + extra vision
A Tiger ACE that can self-repair and extra vision
Command Panther that have extra vision
etc...

Well you pick a unit that also provides you vision.

Jump back to quoted post12 Apr 2022, 09:23 AMHannibal

Show Spoiler

(edited typo)

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2022, 20:49 PMEtherealDragon

Amen! At some point the go-to to buffing any under used unit or doctrine was to give it extra sight. I'm personally still fine with the Pioneer vision since it's not as large as Pathfinder/JLI sight and beyond the early game Pioneers are on repair duty the vast majority of the time so it's harder to really utilize the slightly higher than normal extra sight. Self-spotting combat units are just such an insane force multiplier and really makes life easier...

Jackson
We are removing the M36’s extra sight bonuses. The Jackson will still be an effective tank destroyer due to its high mobility, penetration, range and damage.
• Sight reduced from 40 to 35
• Veterancy 2 sight bonus removed

Panzer Commander

This upgrade has been adjusted to allow tanks to spot targets from further away and improve combat performance. The Artillery Barrage has also been adjusted so its shells arrive sooner.

CP Requirement from 8 to 5.
Sight bonus from 6 to 10
Coordinated Barrage delay from 5 to 0
Coordinated Barrage cost from 120 to 80
Coordinated Barrage range from 35 to 45
Now increases main gun accuracy by 10%.

Jump back to quoted post14 Apr 2022, 06:26 AMEsxile

You know what's funny?

16 may 2018


Only to then give an even better ability to OKW 6 months later

20 Novembre 2018


What's too good for USF is never enough for OKW I guess. What do you see today in 2vs2? Only doctrines having such sight range bonus or JLI/pfuss. But hey the problem are pathfinders!!.

Jump back to quoted post14 Apr 2022, 09:31 AMMMX

Dude... those changes you quote date back to almost 4 years ago (judging by the timestamps you kindly provided) when USF, and Jacksons in particular, were in a totally different state. Not to mention the fact that Panzer Commander isn't free and literally locks you out of a crucial AI upgrade on top of being doctrinal. A bit of a lopsided argument if you ask me...

Anyway, the point EtherealDragon made about self-spotting combat units is IMHO a good one. JLI/PF and possibly some other recon options as well should probably not provide so much sight on the move but instead only do so when stationary or in cover. With this they could still be potent recon assets when used defensively, but not outright invalidate defensive MG or AT gun positioning by themselves while on the offense.

Jump back to quoted post14 Apr 2022, 09:31 AMMMX

. Not to mention the fact that Panzer Commander isn't free and literally locks you out of a crucial AI upgrade on top of being doctrinal. A bit of a lopsided argument if you ask me...

Anyway, the point EtherealDragon made about self-spotting combat units is IMHO a good one. JLI/PF and possibly some other recon options as well should probably not provide so much sight on the move but instead only do so when stationary or in cover. With this they could still be potent recon assets when used defensively, but not outright invalidate defensive MG or AT gun positioning by themselves while on the offense.

Jump back to quoted post14 Apr 2022, 09:31 AMMMX

Dude... those changes you quote date back to almost 4 years ago (judging by the timestamps you kindly provided) when USF, and Jacksons in particular, were in a totally different state. Not to mention the fact that Panzer Commander isn't free and literally locks you out of a crucial AI upgrade on top of being doctrinal. A bit of a lopsided argument if you ask me...

Anyway, the point EtherealDragon made about self-spotting combat units is IMHO a good one. JLI/PF and possibly some other recon options as well should probably not provide so much sight on the move but instead only do so when stationary or in cover. With this they could still be potent recon assets when used defensively, but not outright invalidate defensive MG or AT gun positioning by themselves while on the offense.

Jump back to quoted post14 Apr 2022, 10:20 AMKatukov

panzer commander is far from a weak ability and it compensates the lack of an MG by having an artillery strike that forces relocations of AT walls (or wipes them)


regardless stationary vision would not exactly fix the issue but it would certainly help to make them not as easy to use to their full effect

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2022, 17:35 PMVipper

We are not discussing commander period the thread is about Pathfinders but that is rather rich coming from you. You brought Soviet commander into this thread but somehow OStheer commander are off Topic. Right...

i just did what you normaly do. Worked like a charm.

You started and continued the commander dependence thing, not me I have posted about Pathfinders ambulance Scott and mortars. I suggest you return to those things.

A commander being popular does necessarily translates that the faction a weak and need an OP commander to win, it is as simply as that.

i 100% agree with the later part, it doesnt neccesarely mean that indeed. But you seem to be very strongly opinionated that its absolutly not the case with usf and path commander. In 1v1 (wich you focus on too much) as you state usf seems fine, but in 4v4 its not the case at all imo.

I have simply pointed the flaws in your theory about dictating the fight.

you are free to have your opinion on that. I will leave it at that

Jump back to quoted post14 Apr 2022, 10:15 AMZyllen

Why get these units in the first place then? they cannot be potent recon assets if they need to be in cover. thats a false statement.

Jump back to quoted post14 Apr 2022, 06:26 AMEsxile

You know what's funny?

16 may 2018


Only to then give an even better ability to OKW 6 months later

20 Novembre 2018


What's too good for USF is never enough for OKW I guess. What do you see today in 2vs2? Only doctrines having such sight range bonus or JLI/pfuss. But hey the problem are pathfinders!!.

Earlier this week I was watching Dirty_finisher being completely impotente with 2 Jacksons / 2 Shermans vs a single Tiger Ace + 2 paks. He literally couldn't see his enemy will the other was sniping his Jacksons from the fog of war.
What was his options: a M20 that would be 2 shots by the paks and Tiger? or the Major with vet1 that would be 1 shot by the Tiger?

Jump back to quoted post14 Apr 2022, 19:28 PMKurobane

King Tiger with Panzer Commander and Vet 1 can see half the map. I have been saying for a while now that they need even access to vision across all factions.

Jump back to quoted post13 Apr 2022, 15:56 PMAlphrum

dont allow the ambulance to reinforce from minute 0 and this alone would help solve the paths problem, no need to nerf anything else. ambo Reinforce can be unlocked through tech to delay early aggressive ambo.

Would be nice if rear echelons got a long range DPS buff so they can synergize better with riflemen builds and support riflemen more effectively early on (like volks and sturms).

USF has good units but they seem less diverse compared to other factions making them boring and predictable