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USF Pathfinder spam is too efficient (2v2)

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GachiGasm
9 Apr 2022, 03:54 AM
#81
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Apr 2022, 14:31 PMEsxile

I said Path and Pfuss aren't superior to mainline when they hit the field.


Except Path are superior then rifles, giving the circumstances they have to work with. Why full house of Pfuss early on is a bit risky (at least in smaller gamemodes), because while they have slightly better long range DPS both sovits\usf mainlines are supposed to be used at close\mid ranges and they will just rush you. IS is just better at long range.

Paths on the other hand, not only self spotting for the MGs (against ostheer), but they also supposed to be used at long range. 1v1 fights vs Grens\Volks, both of which are also supposed to be used at range, resulting in either stalemates, where paths sniping alone giving them complete upper hand, or forces OKW\Ost to rush you with grens\volks both of which are again not really supposed to do it.

This is pretty much the sole reason, why the only answer to paths - blobing with or without smoke screen.
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minhuh064
9 Apr 2022, 06:12 AM
#82
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Posts: 63

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2022, 00:13 AMJilet


Extremely broken infantry that loses to Penals at every range and every stage...

How can that happens exactly?
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Mr Carmine
9 Apr 2022, 09:17 AM
#83
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Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2022, 06:12 AMminhuh064

How can that happens exactly?


Haha i wonderd that as well. At every stage and every range is quite a stretch.
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Support Sapper
9 Apr 2022, 10:01 AM
#84
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jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2022, 06:12 AMminhuh064

How can that happens exactly?


sleeping on a satchel may be ? But event that is close range.
My mod with a bunch of new stuffs

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BasedSecretary
9 Apr 2022, 10:06 AM
#85
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Posts: 1197

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2022, 00:13 AMJilet


Extremely broken infantry that loses to Penals at every range and every stage...


In what world?
cope harder alliedcucks
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Jilet
9 Apr 2022, 19:28 PM
#86
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jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2022, 10:06 AMBasedSecretary


In what world?


Open your test range and see it for yourself

Early on they get clapped hard at every range without G43s. Then after G43, only in the late game (Vet 3+) they can win against Penals in point blank but thats with assuming engagement starts from point blank range. Even in late game with "uLtRa sCaLiNg" Panzerfusiliers, you lose at long range and can barely win short range.
Grens are finally good.
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Tomy0
9 Apr 2022, 22:24 PM
#87
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Posts: 50

What cringes me out is more the fact that people pretend that riflemen suck, to try dodging their guilt and shame when spamming pathfinders.

Also, while the argument can be made in 4v4, riflemen in 2v2, which is the topic here, are very good, the only actual issue you can face being a sniper, but snipers are obviously a more global issue, this is not just an issue regarding USF
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DonnieChan
9 Apr 2022, 22:31 PM
#88
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Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1

I just beat pathfinder spam into scott from the same guy 3 times in a row (SOK-Blazin). it was hilarious , he called me bad lvl300 player and l2p hahaha
http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561197983982810
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GiaA
9 Apr 2022, 22:33 PM
#89
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jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2022, 22:24 PMTomy0
What cringes me out is more the fact that people pretend that riflemen suck, to try dodging their guilt and shame when spamming pathfinders.

Also, while the argument can be made in 4v4, riflemen in 2v2, which is the topic here, are very good, the only actual issue you can face being a sniper, but snipers are obviously a more global issue, this is not just an issue regarding USF


The problem is Riflemen aren't an attack move unit and require things like timing and precision when using them which is something very few people are capable of. Tbh even pathfinder spam isn't strong assuming that both sides play perfectly because it just lacks stopping power. It's just that beating it is infinitely more difficult than using it succesfully because you're the one who has to take initiative while having far inferior informaton.

Me and Quiritz lost three times recently to chinese pathfinder abuse but every single one of those games we should have won and we just fucked up mid late (partly due to tilt) which is easy to do when the opponent sees every single one of your moves. But again, it was entirely avoidable. There is no way pathfinder spam with zookas can hold vs mass füsil + smoke or mass G43 spam if they are executed well enough on most maps imo. Pathfinder spam with bars on the has no chance vs a well executed tank push cuz the entire at is double M1.
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Mr Carmine
10 Apr 2022, 06:36 AM
#90
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2022, 22:24 PMTomy0
What cringes me out is more the fact that people pretend that riflemen suck, to try dodging their guilt and shame when spamming pathfinders.

Also, while the argument can be made in 4v4, riflemen in 2v2, which is the topic here, are very good, the only actual issue you can face being a sniper, but snipers are obviously a more global issue, this is not just an issue regarding USF


It not at least mostly not that rifles suck, its that most maps by far are way to open. Back when rifles had smoke this was not an issue. (Not saying they need it back) They always need to close in and the enemy dictates the fight in by far most cases.

Imo rifles currently bleed you way to much esp in 3s and 4s. To much to be viable long term. They have no stock early options for long range inf to counteract the bleeding. They only have mortar smoke or rear echelons smoke with nade tech. They should have gotten stock sandbags just like okw and ukf did to reduce bleeding. Imho these should notvhave gotten them on mainlines but on other units.
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Vipper
10 Apr 2022, 07:20 AM
#91
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2022, 06:36 AMMr Carmine


It not at least mostly not that rifles suck, its that most maps by far are way to open. Back when rifles had smoke this was not an issue. (Not saying they need it back) They always need to close in and the enemy dictates the fight in by far most cases.

Why?

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2022, 06:36 AMMr Carmine

Imo rifles currently bleed you way to much esp in 3s and 4s. To much to be viable long term. They have no stock early options for long range inf to counteract the bleeding. They only have mortar smoke or rear echelons smoke with nade tech. They should have gotten stock sandbags just like okw and ukf did to reduce bleeding. Imho these should notvhave gotten them on mainlines but on other units.

Does mortar have HE explosive shell to bleed the enemy?
Does the USF have access to early ambulance to greatly reduce bleed?
:)
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DonnieChan
10 Apr 2022, 09:03 AM
#92
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jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2022, 22:33 PMGiaA


The problem is Riflemen aren't an attack move unit and require things like timing and precision when using them which is something very few people are capable of. Tbh even pathfinder spam isn't strong assuming that both sides play perfectly because it just lacks stopping power. It's just that beating it is infinitely more difficult than using it succesfully because you're the one who has to take initiative while having far inferior informaton.

Me and Quiritz lost three times recently to chinese pathfinder abuse but every single one of those games we should have won and we just fucked up mid late (partly due to tilt) which is easy to do when the opponent sees every single one of your moves. But again, it was entirely avoidable. There is no way pathfinder spam with zookas can hold vs mass füsil + smoke or mass G43 spam if they are executed well enough on most maps imo. Pathfinder spam with bars on the has no chance vs a well executed tank push cuz the entire at is double M1.


good post.

http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561197983982810
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Protos Angelus
10 Apr 2022, 09:14 AM
#93
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Posts: 1515

Grens and volks don't stand a chance against rifles if the fight starts at around 10-15 range. Even if gr/vl are behind cover and rifles are advancing up to the cover, they will win it (unless advancing across red cover) early on.
Such scenarios are, coming around bushes or buildings or such sight blockers.
I would know, I pretty much play USF in 90% of total games (a few custom lobbies OKW and that's it). Rifles own grens and volks close range.
Problem is, seldom are maps where you can start a fight at 10-15 range and close in.
Most 2v2+ maps are fought cover to cover at ranges 15-30, where rifles lose AND those maps are quite open, meaning you can't easily sneak around or wait.
Another problem is that pretty much all 3v3+ maps have perfect MG42 positions where MG42/34 can lock down a whole area.
Of course, that's not a problem later on, when you have smoke on captain/echelons/major/lieutenant, but early on, unless you want to go for a mortar (which is risky AF as the USF mortar is by far the weakest and usually just behaves as a pop eater, better to wait for pak howi; as much as it was nerfed, it's still better), you need to carefully plan each attack and use echelons to scout it out. That's where pathfinders come in. The sight is very much needed to see pios AND to see the MG42 so you know from which angle to come.
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
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Vipper
10 Apr 2022, 10:10 AM
#94
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2022, 09:14 AMProtos Angelus
...
Most 2v2+ maps are fought cover to cover at ranges 15-30, where rifles lose AND those maps are quite open, meaning you can't easily sneak around or wait.

Do you have any test or stat to back the claim that vanilla VG/gren will win over riflemen guaranteed at range 15 cover to cover?

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2022, 09:14 AMProtos Angelus

... (which is risky AF as the USF mortar is by far the weakest and usually just behaves as a pop eater, better to wait for pak howi; as much as it was nerfed, it's still better)...

Once more any stats or test to back the claim that the USF mortar significantly weaker than other mortars?

or
are these claims imaginary like the one that KT's pintle suppress better than HMG-42 when in breakthrough mode advertised as tested?
:)
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Mr Carmine
10 Apr 2022, 12:41 PM
#95
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Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2022, 07:20 AMVipper

Why?
rilfes are not the best at long range,
their best preformance is close to mid range. They dont have sandbags stock. They either need to close in or avoid the engagement. They have a harder time defending a position because of these. And before you start i am not saying rifle are up. The maps are to open for them to shine.

Does mortar have HE explosive shell to bleed the enemy?
Does the USF have access to early ambulance to greatly reduce bleed?

releying on a mortar to bleed is quite a bit unreliable. As usf you get rifles (midrange)rear echelons and a mortar and ambu at t0. Other factions get mg's scout cars/transport, at gun, long range and cqc inf or sprint. So using doctrines as usf and pathfinders in paticular to fill gaps so early on makes sense imo. Neither paths or scott imo are op.

Ambu comes early but not so early, its also the most vunerable imo esp if used as forward healing.
Also if what your implying is true about mortar and ambu why is usf usualy more mp starved then most faction when not using paths? They cant seem to float mp such as okw for example.
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Vipper
10 Apr 2022, 12:50 PM
#96
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2022, 12:41 PMMr Carmine
rilfes are not the best at long range,
their best preformance is close to mid range. They dont have sandbags stock. They either need to close in or avoid the engagement. They have a harder time defending a position because of these. And before you start i am not saying rifle are up. The maps are to open for them to shine.

They do not have a harder time to defend positions because Ostheer are bad at attacking.

Try attacking with grenadiers from out of cover vs riflemen in cover and see what happens.

But that is besides the point riflemen are much more flexible when it comes to fighting having decent DPS at all ranges and thus it is not "the enemy dictates the fight in by far most cases"

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2022, 12:41 PMMr Carmine

releying on a mortar to bleed is quite a bit unreliable. As usf you get rifles (midrange)rear echelons and a mortar and ambu at t0. Other factions get mg's scout cars/transport, at gun, long range and cqc inf or sprint. So using doctrines as usf and pathfinders in paticular to fill gaps so early on makes sense imo. Neither paths or scott imo are op.

USF mortar is in line with other mortars and it will bleed the enemy unless he can fire back.

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2022, 12:41 PMMr Carmine

Ambu comes early but not so early, its also the most vunerable imo esp if used as forward healing.
Also if what your implying is true about mortar and ambu why is usf usualy more mp starved then most faction when not using paths? They cant seem to float mp such as okw for example.

Destroying a ambulance in a 3vs3 or 4vs4 in the early game is not easy at all.

OKW float mp only when/if they are starving for fuel (and even then mostly because they can not build cashes like other factions).
:)
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thekessvn
10 Apr 2022, 13:18 PM
#97
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Posts: 109

and again, pios + gren + MG42 or Volk + kubel + sturm have more tactical power than RE + rifle + rifle. 3rd rifleman would meet 2nd Gren/MG/volk.
And thing is:
If you mirco well, you win the engagement with high cost. You miss mirco, you lost all.
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Support Sapper
10 Apr 2022, 14:07 PM
#98
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Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2022, 10:10 AMVipper



Once more any stats or test to back the claim that the USF mortar significantly weaker than other mortars?



While relload and scatter of these two are similar. OST mortar do have better aoe distance of 1/2/3 compare to 0.75/1.5/3 of usf mortar on both auto attack and barrage. OSt mortar also have 5 more range on both AT and barrage. All for only 10mp more.

Now before you drag me in a whole series of post to debate meaning of the word "significantly". I didn't make any claim and simply provide the stats.
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Vipper
10 Apr 2022, 14:28 PM
#99
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2022, 14:07 PMSupport Sapper


While relload and scatter of these two are similar. OST mortar do have better aoe distance of 1/2/3 compare to 0.75/1.5/3 of usf mortar on both auto attack and barrage. OSt mortar also have 5 more range on both AT and barrage. All for only 10mp more.

Now before you drag me in a whole series of post to debate meaning of the word "significantly". I didn't make any claim and simply provide the stats.

Thanks for providing the stats.

Do you agree with the claim:
"USF mortar is by far the weakest and usually just behaves as a pop eater," ?
:)
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GachiGasm
10 Apr 2022, 14:31 PM
#100
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Funny enough, but USF has Inf Company which provides LMGs, sandbags, mortar and arty or Tactical Support which also provide LMG, forward reinforcement platform and Cali. Covering pretty much rifles problem on open long range maps, yet high ranks still prefers pathfinder abuse.

Its not about rifles performance like at all. Its this:
jump backJump back to quoted post9 Apr 2022, 22:33 PMGiaA

It's just that beating it is infinitely more difficult than using it succesfully because you're the one who has to take initiative while having far inferior informaton.
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