Addressing the issue of ELO-hell.

Total Games: 40177

Games on Nordwind: 2854
Odds to get Nordwind: 2854 / 40177 = 7.1%

Games on Lienne: 3905
Odds to get Lienne: 3905 / 40177 = 9.7%

So what are the odds you get Nordwind 3 games in a row?
So what are the odds you get Nordwind 5 out of 6 games in a row?
So what are the odds you get Lienne 3 out of 5 games in a row?

If your focus is about playing the maps "in a row", hard to tell if Relic servers have some issues. Might be. But the question itself is biasing the analysis. You show 8 data points, yet sometimes neglect some of them.
The chance for someone having your vetoes (and assuming the other players 100% conforming to the general map frequencies, which we can't do but the stats you show are the best assumption we have) playing 3 times Nordwind in a row is 0,5%, for Lienne 0,94% (the starting point of the series doesn't matter, so it comes down to map_chance^2).
For playing Nordwind/Lienne X times out of 8 games, the chances are 8,1*10^-5% and 0,03%. Given we look at ~40k games though there are a lot of chances for this happening too, especially for Lienne.

The issue is that if I look at my last 3v3 games, I find 1 Whiteball, 2 Redball, 2 Wineken, 2 Rhzev, 1 Hamburg, 2 Rhine. Vetoes slightly change depending on Axis/Allies, but usually they are Oka, Steppes, General Mud, La Gleize.
My data has as much validity as yours. They are both singular obersvations, but mine seems to be totally fine from what I can tell.


So there are two options: Either Relic servers are indeed screwed and for some reason biasing Nordwind/some maps/generally favor streaks. Or you were just playing with a player base that had unusual vetoes and was not vetoing Nordwind as often as the average player base does.

Imo the main issue in 4vs4 are prearranged teams that have an advantage and can seriously mess up one's ELO

Essen Steelworks - Too tight in city area. RNG shitfest.
La Gleize - Too big and weird fences everywhere.
Lorch Assault (West Wall) - If I get bottom I /L.
Vielsalm - Too big and wonky city fighting.
City 17 - Worst 4v4 map ever made by far.



Total Games: 40177

Games on Nordwind: 2854
Odds to get Nordwind: 2854 / 40177 = 7.1%

Games on Lienne: 3905
Odds to get Lienne: 3905 / 40177 = 9.7%

So what are the odds you get Nordwind 3 games in a row?
So what are the odds you get Nordwind 5 out of 6 games in a row?
So what are the odds you get Lienne 3 out of 5 games in a row?

These aren't the odds for anyone... The total number of games includes games played by people who have vetoed them. Nice "data" though.

Imo the main issue in 4vs4 are prearranged teams that have an advantage and can seriously mess up one's ELO

That's a general problem with MM. Many prearranged even play 2-3 games more and you end up playing with chances against you for more than a match.

My solution? Randoms don't lose ELO playing against premades. Even better, let a checkbox "Play against premades?" exist so that people can actually choose what they want.

Premades are a very little portion of MM in general, I don't really pity them if they cannot play for 20-30 minutes due to searching.

These aren't the odds for anyone... The total number of games includes games played by people who have vetoed them. Nice "data" though.

I don't share Rosbone's point, but his percentages are a decent estimation of what you need to expect. Setting the chances for your own vetoes to 0 might not be 100% correct, but it is not THAT far from the truth either. But even if you want somehow factor this in, all it would do is to lower the chances of the other maps and thereby further decreasing of getting these multiple times.

The main problem as I already said is the assumption that the player pool at the times he was searching is representative of the overall player pool regarding vetoes.

Premades are a very little portion of MM in general, I don't really pity them if they cannot play for 20-30 minutes due to searching.

Depends on the mode. In 2v2 and 3v3, premades are VERY common from what I can tell when I check the opponent's player cards after the match.

Making different play lists would increase the search time for everyone. What Relic should instead do is figure out how best to adjust the ELO rating for premade teams and match them to higher ELO randoms.

Depends on the mode. In 2v2 and 3v3, premades are VERY common from what I can tell when I check the opponent's player cards after the match.

Making different play lists would increase the search time for everyone. What Relic should instead do is figure out how best to adjust the ELO rating for premade teams and match them to higher ELO randoms.

Yep ofcourse that would be the ideal approach to it, but COH2's playerbase is not so high as to allow this.

These aren't the odds for anyone... The total number of games includes games played by people who have vetoed them. Nice "data" though.

As you and Hannibal have pointed out. The data estimations are not perfect.

The post makes two points:
- Example of possible ELO hell.
- How fun is it for players to play the same maps over and over before they delete the game?

This is one example of the RNG forced on players that can push them into ELO hell.

What if:
1) You do not have the right commander for a certain map. You are now at a disadvantage to win. Then you get the same map 3-5 times in a row.

2) Certain maps have low win percentages from a certain spawn. But the match maker tends to keep shoving you in the same map and spawn locations so you lose games and ELO. Red Ball for example. I win 75% of games from the close spawns but lose 75% of games from the far spawns. Hamburg north east spawn is insta drop in most matches.

The point is: the chances of getting bad spawns/maps is very low. But it happens. And people get pushed into a lower ELO.

This is also an example of things I personally would change to make ELO hell less prevalent. But I do not expect Relic to fix this. This is way beyond scope for Coh2. Maybe Coh3.

This is also an example of things I personally would change to make ELO hell less prevalent. But I do not expect Relic to fix this. This is way beyond scope for Coh2. Maybe Coh3.

Don't hold your breath. COH3 is only a decent Multiplayer game because a lot of people are "expected" to buy it. If we end up with 10.000players at peak time then it's a slow descent to COH2 madness.

No algorithm can fix low player numbers, and in a field where competition is giants such as LOL and DOTA2, you have to be very careful. I would seriously consider making the multiplayer aspect free, much like the previous titles mentioned.

What if:
1) You do not have the right commander for a certain map. You are now at a disadvantage to win. Then you get the same map 3-5 times in a row.

2) Certain maps have low win percentages from a certain spawn. But the match maker tends to keep shoving you in the same map and spawn locations so you lose games and ELO. Red Ball for example. I win 75% of games from the close spawns but lose 75% of games from the far spawns. Hamburg north east spawn is insta drop in most matches.

The point is: the chances of getting bad spawns/maps is very low. But it happens. And people get pushed into a lower ELO.

This is also an example of things I personally would change to make ELO hell less prevalent. But I do not expect Relic to fix this. This is way beyond scope for Coh2. Maybe Coh3.

I see your points here.
Both of them are partially MM and map design issues at the same time. To 1), I'd attribute this mostly to personal factors then: Either grab commanders to be safe for all types of maps (this is easily possible with the current commander selection). Or veto the maps that you don't have commanders for and therefore probably do not want to play. Problems are obviously that some maps are just outright bad and need to be vetoed and that new players might not have enough commanders.

For point 2) I can see how you want to argue to not play the same map twice in a row. In the end this is equivalent to having another veto. But maybe players like the specific map, if they do not want to play it anymore they can swap a veto instead. As a side note, it would also water down data about map statistics and which ones are most often played. I also doubt that you can properly adjust for the spawns without causing severe issues once the maps themselves get patched or some faction re-balance happens. Good and bad Spawn locations are inherent of map design. Instead of factoring this in to the MM while the game is still being patched will cause issues. Fixing the map instead is the better way to go, I assume.

There is probably and issue with calculating ELO loss from teams since it seem that individual ELO is use and not the ELO of the team.

Thus losing from top 10 team that has low individual rank will cause ELO similar to losing from players of about equal ELO.

This is certainly not an ELO problem, but I noticed that there are a lot of snowflakes right now in the game that instantly quit the game if it doesn't go so smoothly. At the start of the game, with a huge imbalance, the players played extremely hard, made comebacks, and the result of 0 - 1 was nothing rare, not like now.

...there are a lot of snowflakes right now in the game that instantly quit the game if it doesn't go so smoothly.

I have seen a huge influx of morons in the game personally. Well they are either dumb or stoned, I cant really tell which.

An example would be where a player builds their first building. Most experienced players will build it as close to the front of the base as possible. So units have a shorter distance to the front.

Most noobs will build it right where they stand.

Lately I have seen people run to the back of the base and build. So the units will now take twice as long to get to the front lines.

This is just a simple example.

Another is the huge amount of players running to most useless points on the map and camping them.

These are all inst-loss moves.

Not sure if I am getting better and just now notice this stuff or what? But it feels like the player base has devolved.

I have seen a huge influx of morons in the game personally. Well they are either dumb or stoned, I cant really tell which.

An example would be where a player builds their first building. Most experienced players will build it as close to the front of the base as possible. So units have a shorter distance to the front.

Most noobs will build it right where they stand.

Lol Im not even good and I know where to build the buildings. Not just for shorter distance for new units but cuz u can reinforce from the Sovs/Ost tech buildings

If someone builds them in the back they must have ptsd from letting someone destroy their tech buildings

If someone builds them in the back they must have ptsd from letting someone destroy their tech buildings

I know right! Not sure if I should yell at them or hold them gently and let them cry in my arms

You see Rosbone, last 3 days I had brilliant teammates and had a nice 11 game winning streak.
Today I got 3 games of 10 minute afkers (after which they had ran around and left) and 2 games of horrible matchmaking.
So 5 horrible games in the span of 7 hours.
God giveth, God taketh away.
In the end it all evens out.

God giveth, God taketh away.
In the end it all evens out.

Another satisfied customer of Relic Entertainment

You see Rosbone, last 3 days I had brilliant teammates and had a nice 11 game winning streak.
Today I got 3 games of 10 minute afkers (after which they had ran around and left) and 2 games of horrible matchmaking.
So 5 horrible games in the span of 7 hours.
God giveth, God taketh away.
In the end it all evens out.

Now try to play 4vs4.

I have seen a huge influx of morons in the game personally. Well they are either dumb or stoned, I cant really tell which.

An example would be where a player builds their first building. Most experienced players will build it as close to the front of the base as possible. So units have a shorter distance to the front.

Most noobs will build it right where they stand.

Lately I have seen people run to the back of the base and build. So the units will now take twice as long to get to the front lines.

This is just a simple example.

Another is the huge amount of players running to most useless points on the map and camping them.

These are all inst-loss moves.

Not sure if I am getting better and just now notice this stuff or what? But it feels like the player base has devolved.

Or starting their build by building T1 and spamming mortars (for their first unit ever, not even mg at this point).

Or spamming grens and hoping for the best by diving head on to mg.

Or spamming bunkers and eating all their muni like candy.

...

I just looked at the Win/Loss for the last 6 games of everyone in a single match:

My Team
Me: L, L, L, W, L, L
P2: L, L, W, L, L, W
P3: L, L, L, W, L, L
P4: L, L, L, L, L, W

Enemy Team:
P5: W, W, L, L, L, W
P6: W, W, W, W, W, W
P7: W, W, W, W, L, W
P8: L, W, W, L, W, W

Guess who won the game? Yes, ELO hell is a thing. You are 100% at the whim of the Relic server.