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My real problem with COH3

10 Dec 2021, 20:25 PM
#81
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Dec 2021, 05:47 AMPorygon


I prefer the OKW when they were release than the braindead A move German Protoss faction here now.

There was even more braindead amoving when they launched, what are you talking about?

OKWs launch design was horrific. Interesting on paper but it showed ZERO reflection of being in the same game as the eastern front factions. Sovs and Ost needed huge changes just to compete
10 Dec 2021, 21:00 PM
#82
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Dec 2021, 20:07 PMKatukov


the only person who ever complained about okw players abusing this bug was you

No need to get multiple sturms, you get king tiger or jp4 spam

Pls leave your personal grudges out of this forum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbEEBCFQdno
Watch and learn
10 Dec 2021, 21:03 PM
#83
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


There was even more braindead amoving when they launched, what are you talking about?

OKWs launch design was horrific. Interesting on paper but it showed ZERO reflection of being in the same game as the eastern front factions. Sovs and Ost needed huge changes just to compete

And part of the problem was that it should be the other way round.

The west front armies that should adjust to eastern front armies since the where relevantly balanced.
10 Dec 2021, 22:32 PM
#84
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197


There was even more braindead amoving when they launched, what are you talking about?

OKWs launch design was horrific. Interesting on paper but it showed ZERO reflection of being in the same game as the eastern front factions. Sovs and Ost needed huge changes just to compete


My good man that is what I have been saying all along.

OKW is the perfect example. A very very stylish and interesting faction on paper with a "desperate" aesthetic (literally, the perfect thing for the time period) who got absolutely devastated by the continuous nerfs of "balance team" without any real direction to them. They didn't even bother to adjust the tools or the playstyle. They just straight up downplayed some stats and overplayed some others. They did that to the other factions too. That is not balancing, that is a band aid solution at best. Half the updates from the release of WFA until roughly 2017 were nerfing and upping and nerfing and upping okw units.

They did not get all of them, and still some idiotic pieces of the original design remain. Schwere panzer (flak hq) which basically was used to lock down Fuel since the OKW originally got diminished incomes, no ability to build caches (the only faction, wow) and a few more things.

Just look at the build order of all games nowadays, it's ridiculous.
3-4 Line Inf -> Mortar/MG -> T1 -> AT -> T2 -> Elite Inf -> T3 -> Rocket Arty -> Tanks.

Not to mention that UKF and USF still need specific commanders to even be competent.

And in the end, it's ok by me. I have been playing this game for all the time it's out. I accept those things.

I just really don't want them in COH3, and I think if Relic doesn't change their dev tactics, there is a high chance of it happening again. We need more artists and designers in games, not nerds and stats-junkies who think that fair == same stats.
10 Dec 2021, 23:28 PM
#85
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

CoH2 really suffered from the concept of either "premium" or "because of". Most of the problems in the game can be categorised as one or another.

Soviet and Wehr at least had the same tools, but assymetrical. Both of the factions actually are quite good, the execution of balance at launch was terrible, but the foundation of the factions were very solid. I'd say game was actually very enjoyable right before WFA launch, it was more or less balanced in some perverted CoH way, but yet balanced.

Then WFA hit the fan, with the concept of "we strip tool X from the faction and buff Y in return" and when people ask, we will point them to the fact that USF\OKW dont have sniper, for example. And CoH2 went even deeper into shithole and never recovered fully.

OKW was released overpowered because of this in teamgames.
USF was released overpowered in smaller games because of this.

As for UKF, I still belive till this day that they were a cashgrab + cheap way to bring new players into the game.

Because, no-one even with 1 brainsell would have created this overpowered abomination which they were on release. Its just immpossible. It seemed like UKF was ripped strate from cheatmode comp-stomper wet dream. And fun fact it, it was just as bad in Alpha and people said it was this bad, but Relic didnt care.

And while I agree that balance team did questinable dissitions (mostly when it came to introducing or "re-thinking" stuff), considering what they had to deal with overall generalization was really the only option to keep the game somewhat alive.
10 Dec 2021, 23:28 PM
#86
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Dec 2021, 21:03 PMVipper

And part of the problem was that it should be the other way round.

The west front armies that should adjust to eastern front armies since the where relevantly balanced.

I mean they certainly tried. They changed OKW completely. Barely resembles it's launch design. USF had some seismic changes too

Brits in alpha looked like they were from CoH 6 in 2035, changed at launch, and changed again very much since then
10 Dec 2021, 23:41 PM
#87
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


I mean they certainly tried. They changed OKW completely. Barely resembles it's launch design. USF had some seismic changes too

Brits in alpha looked like they were from CoH 6 in 2035, changed at launch, and changed again very much since then

Yes but the change in OKW/USF/UK come after they mess up EFA armies. If they did not touch the EFA much and only removed cheese/bugs and fixed commanders the game would had been easier to balance.

For instance USF rolfstomped WER so WER had to be buffed again and again so it started to rolfstop Soviet and the then Soviet had to buffed and so on.
11 Dec 2021, 00:05 AM
#88
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

CoH2 really suffered from the concept of either "premium" or "because of". Most of the problems in the game can be categorised as one or another.

Soviet and Wehr at least had the same tools, but assymetrical. Both of the factions actually are quite good, the execution of balance at launch was terrible, but the foundation of the factions were very solid. I'd say game was actually very enjoyable right before WFA launch, it was more or less balanced in some perverted CoH way, but yet balanced.

Hard agree. You are completely speaking my mind here.

Then WFA hit the fan, with the concept of "we strip tool X from the faction and buff Y in return" and when people ask, we will point them to the fact that USF\OKW dont have sniper, for example. And CoH2 went even deeper into shithole and never recovered fully.

OKW was released overpowered because of this in teamgames.
USF was released overpowered in smaller games because of this.

As for UKF, I still belive till this day that they were a cashgrab + cheap way to bring new players into the game.

Because, no-one even with 1 brainsell would have created this overpowered abomination which they were on release. Its just immpossible. It seemed like UKF was ripped strate from cheatmode comp-stomper wet dream. And fun fact it, it was just as bad in Alpha and people said it was this bad, but Relic didnt care.

Agree with you too here, I think I read something back in the day that UKF was not even Relic's project rather they outsourced it to another dev to make. I have major gripes with UKF, I find it the worst faction ever (COH2 UK, that is). Its teching is shitty, its units are just not there and is straight up unplayable without 1-2 meta commanders. Does not have nondoc rocket arty. Basically it's everything wrong with COH2.

And while I agree that balance team did questinable dissitions (mostly when it came to introducing or "re-thinking" stuff), considering what they had to deal with overall generalization was really the only option to keep the game somewhat alive.
Yes, I agree. I just hope we won't see more of that.
11 Dec 2021, 00:06 AM
#89
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Dec 2021, 23:41 PMVipper

Yes but the change in OKW/USF/UK come after they mess up EFA armies. If they did not touch the EFA much and only removed cheese/bugs and fixed commanders the game would had been easier to balance.

For instance USF rolfstomped WER so WER had to be buffed again and again so it started to rolfstop Soviet and the then Soviet had to buffed and so on.


YES. Basically that's COH2 history in a nutshell, and I am sick of it.

I am feeling glad I am not the only one. That's the point of my ranting thread.
11 Dec 2021, 05:21 AM
#90
avatar of Rosbone

Posts: 2145 | Subs: 2

I am really lost on this topic.

You guys are saying Relic should be the sole balancer for Coh3. That Relic is great and early Coh2 is great but the community screwed it up?

Then you say Relic adjusted the WFA and added UKF the worst faction design ever?

It seems like all of your points are that Relic screwed up Coh2 not the community.

Side note: The communities hands are tied when it comes to patches. Relic will only let them change a few things. So they are limited usually to buffs and nerfs. And Relic signs off on the patch. Again Relic is the point of your anger not the community.

I dont have a dog in the fight. I dont care about balance at all. And realistically Relic is going to do 99% of the faction design anyway because they write the code then give it to the community to review. I doubt the community is designing the factions.
11 Dec 2021, 06:16 AM
#91
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 713 | Subs: 2

There's this thing where people complain about something because it makes them feel like they are part of a kind of grassroots movement, which is an appealing role to take. People also just like complaining, partly because it is one way of dealing with ingame losses. Because of that people start repeating what others have said without actually having even the slightest clue what they're talking about. Most of the balance team shittalk and conspiracies are a great example of this.

Edit: I would exclude people like bao and marcel who may have justified complains. Although I still think Bao falls into the pseudo revolutionary trap even while being right some of the time.

Edti 1: The amount of substanceless theorizing in this thread blows my mind. Can't you have these types of debates about a subject where rhetoric void of any substance at least earns you societal status? Like sociology or something?
11 Dec 2021, 06:27 AM
#92
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 713 | Subs: 2



My good man that is what I have been saying all along.

OKW is the perfect example. A very very stylish and interesting faction on paper with a "desperate" aesthetic (literally, the perfect thing for the time period) who got absolutely devastated by the continuous nerfs of "balance team" without any real direction to them. They didn't even bother to adjust the tools or the playstyle. They just straight up downplayed some stats and overplayed some others. They did that to the other factions too. That is not balancing, that is a band aid solution at best. Half the updates from the release of WFA until roughly 2017 were nerfing and upping and nerfing and upping okw units.

They did not get all of them, and still some idiotic pieces of the original design remain. Schwere panzer (flak hq) which basically was used to lock down Fuel since the OKW originally got diminished incomes, no ability to build caches (the only faction, wow) and a few more things.

Just look at the build order of all games nowadays, it's ridiculous.
3-4 Line Inf -> Mortar/MG -> T1 -> AT -> T2 -> Elite Inf -> T3 -> Rocket Arty -> Tanks.

Not to mention that UKF and USF still need specific commanders to even be competent.

And in the end, it's ok by me. I have been playing this game for all the time it's out. I accept those things.

I just really don't want them in COH3, and I think if Relic doesn't change their dev tactics, there is a high chance of it happening again. We need more artists and designers in games, not nerds and stats-junkies who think that fair == same stats.


The funny thing about these kinds of posts is that they sound reasonable to people with only casual knoweledge of CoH2. But to someone like me they read like fiction. The things you say are just not based in reality. Take for example the build order you described as being used every game. That build order makes 0 sense for any faction at any stage in CoH2 ever.

You're basically writing BS that makes you sound like you have a good point with total disregard for the truth.
11 Dec 2021, 06:46 AM
#93
avatar of Rosbone

Posts: 2145 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2021, 06:16 AMGiaA
Can't you have these types of debates about a subject where rhetoric void of any substance at least earns you societal status? Like sociology or something?

This quote wins the internet! This is the content I come here for. Points GiaA.

To be fair, it is more fun to talk about coh2 than to play coh2. So it gives people a place to go and be with their own kind.

My guess is guys like Vipper and Katitof are on the payroll here to keep them views coming :snfPeter:
11 Dec 2021, 06:49 AM
#94
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 713 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2021, 06:46 AMRosbone

This quote wins the internet! This is the content I come here for. Points GiaA.

To be fair, it is more fun to talk about coh2 than to play coh2. So it gives people a place to go and be with their own kind.

My guess is guys like Vipper and Katitof are on the payroll here to keep them views coming :snfPeter:


Glad you like it. I hope it makes up for all the times I had to call you out on your ranting :D

Edit: Also, go make some more great maps instead of reading this trainwreck of a thread pls.
11 Dec 2021, 07:37 AM
#95
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2021, 05:21 AMRosbone
I am really lost on this topic.
...

I can not speak on behalf of others.

What I am saying is that both Relic and MOD team made mistakes in balancing the game, it was not all black and white as claimed by others. In addition Relic did work with community member from at least as early as 2014 again contrary to claims by others.

Of coarse one has to keep in mind that even community patches are still Relics responsibility and one can not blame the mod team for them, we should actually be thankful to MOD team for the effort the put.

What I am also saying is that it would be nice if factions had clear designs that worked.
11 Dec 2021, 08:00 AM
#96
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2021, 06:16 AMGiaA
There's this thing where people complain about something because it makes them feel like they are part of a kind of grassroots movement, which is an appealing role to take. People also just like complaining, partly because it is one way of dealing with ingame losses. Because of that people start repeating what others have said without actually having even the slightest clue what they're talking about. Most of the balance team shittalk and conspiracies are a great example of this.


Also imagine having this signature and making this thread
cope harder alliedcucks

I guess OP is not that Based after all :lol:
11 Dec 2021, 11:51 AM
#97
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197



Also imagine having this signature and making this thread

I guess OP is not that Based after all :lol:


My dear friend,

My signature is obviously a cringy joke that I like. Fyi I play all factions almost equally except OKW which I play the most.

You can keep ad homineming me all you like. That will not change the fact that I have made some arguments which I have thought about a lot.

I am not looking to enter a shouting contest with you. I want a better COH game and nothing more. It saddens me that such immature mannerisms such as ad hominem are so widespread.
11 Dec 2021, 11:53 AM
#98
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Dec 2021, 06:27 AMGiaA


The funny thing about these kinds of posts is that they sound reasonable to people with only casual knoweledge of CoH2. But to someone like me they read like fiction. The things you say are just not based in reality. Take for example the build order you described as being used every game. That build order makes 0 sense for any faction at any stage in CoH2 ever.

You're basically writing BS that makes you sound like you have a good point with total disregard for the truth.


I respect your opinion and looking forward to counter arguments. Forgive me for completely disregarding your blatant adhominemism.

I speak only with arguments. Naturally, I respond only to them.
11 Dec 2021, 12:11 PM
#99
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 3032 | Subs: 3

Yes and everyone is allowed to have his own opinion, but many of your takes are either inaccurate or just false. Spending time on counter arguments feels like a wasted effort in this thread I'm sorry.

Your account being only 3 days old on top of your "just a joke" avatar & signature doesnt help here either. Then there is also stuff like this:



Lmao I started playing this game the minute it went out. I even went and upgraded my shitty pc in order to run COH2 at max. I know what I'm saying don't worry.


Source: Trust me bro
11 Dec 2021, 12:27 PM
#100
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515

Yes and everyone is allowed to have his own opinion, but many of your takes are either inaccurate or just false. Spending time on counter arguments feels like a wasted effort in this thread I'm sorry.

Your account being only 3 days old on top of your "just a joke" avatar & signature doesnt help here either. Then there is also stuff like this:



Source: Trust me bro


Source: Trust me bro
If you were a better player then you would have been #1 in all factions across all modes, so OBviously, you have no clue what you're talking about. Also don't disregard the fact that even though his acc is 3 days old, he's been playing it since it was materialized inside of the developers brains. Finally, why wouldn't you spend hours writing actual arguments to try to disprove some random person online. I mean, who wouldn't like to spend their days doing that.
In conclusion, you're false, trust me bro

Also, I'm top 10 in all modes with all factions with my alt accounts so unlike you, I know my stuff. Also been playing it since COH1 so I know my stuff, times two
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