KV-2 Vet 3 reload buff and siege mode

KV-2 should just get a barrage like the Brummbar or 105 Sherman does.

Siege mode is just badly designed

contrary: the siege mod is IMO amazing at defensive play, if defended well, the enemy will not really be able to shoot at the kv-2, while the kv-2 can shoot at them

Yeah but if you read my original topic I also mentioned that it should get a reload duration reduction regardless of the siege mode. The reload duration at vet 0 and vet 3 non-siege mode are the same at 9 which seems odd to me and thats why I shared the examples of brummbar, scott, stug 3.

The original point was that the 11 sec ROF of the KV-2 is siege mode is wrong, its ROF should be around 9. (the modifier was only mentioned to explain why that site got the number wrong).

The reload on Tank mode used to be 11-12 secs (if I remember correctly) so it has already been buffed. The unit is quite strong some people even like it more than IS-2.

Siege mode used to be better with a reload bonus of 50% instead of 75%. The unit was performing better in siege mode than in tank mode. For some strange reason the MOD team decided to change that.

I dont believe my points could be misleading since what I have shared are straight facts. I have not made any statement from my personal opinion. Kv2 4 shotting a panther is a statement since most of the time it will not be true and this statement is based on probability to be true whereas 73% pen of panther is a fact.

My apologies if it sounded as you posted something with the intention to mislead. I was simply responding to claim that the factors I mentioned where a "highly misleading presentation" when actually (according to MMX tool) they make difference. It seem that the 120 (!) deflection damage of the KV-2 can help it win the fight.

Now according to what you have posted:
"Kv2 is rather a dedicated anti infantry tank but it should be able to fend off attacks from panthers. Obviously it shouldnt destroy panther in a 1v1 but atleast deal enough damage to cancel the dives."
and
According to MMX simulation KV-2 not only can "cancel dives" when in tank mod but will probably win around 3 out of 4 fights.

If you do not trust MMX simulation I suggest you run some test in cheat mode and come back with the results. If you need any help with the test I will probably be able help you.

Wehr """""commander slot"""" ability grants the ability on all tanks, including the ELEFANT

The hulldown has none of the drawbacks of the siege mode, except immobility (but you can immediately cancel it), it grants only buffs.
Also - the "75%" weapon range doesn't mean much when the elefant, a 70+ range TD, gets 25% larger range, which already puts it at a more or less same range as the kv-2, a pak-43 on wheels, you could say


Just because its a "commander ability" doesn't make it not strong, its not as strong, game-trivializing and bullshit as spotting scopes, but its definitely underrated

Do we agree that the abilities "Hull Down" and "Firing Positions!" are not "exactly the same" and that comparing them is not really meaningful in any way?

Do we agree that an Elefant and KV-2 are completely different units?

Do we agree that KV-2 is quite unique with dual role?

...

I don't see the KV-2 nearly as far behind, honestly. Sure, the +10 range, higher mobility and better (moving) accuracy give the Panther the edge as long as it can kite or circle, but if you take raw damage, penetration and chance to hit only, the KV-2 is actually superior.
Placed stationary and facing each other at 40 m distance, the KV-2 will win about 66% of the time - despite lower accuracy and pen thanks to the deflection damage it deals (T2K is about 50 +/- 15 s and 55 +/- 10 s for the KV-2 and Panther to win, respectively). If deflection damage could actually kill tanks instead of just dropping them to 0 HP the difference would be even greater.

In addition, the KV-2 gets +10 range at vet 2, which is when the range advantage of the Panther vanishes and things get pretty even. Again, the Panther has the upper hand while both tanks are moving, but I'd say both tanks exchanging max range shots before dropping back into safety is a more realistic scenario, anyway. Here, the much slower reload for the KV-2 isn't that much a disadvantage and stutter-stopping for more accuracy / lower scatter is also easier to pull off.

Actually, you're right so i apologize.
First time I ran the numbers I had an error in my calculations, which gave the Panther almost 80% win rate.
When I fixed that I got win rates for the KV1 at 60% (assuming 80% of its shots hit, not sure how accurate that is since I didn't have the time to look it up in your tool). TTKs were very similar with a slight edge to the KV2 (I think 57 vs 63 seconds but can't fully remember).


I still think that in game, the Panther will perform better than the remaining 40% win rate. It is quite likely that both tanks will part ways after 2-3 shots. The Panther 'wins' two seconds per shot, so it is more likely to get the last shot before disengaging.
Especially for thr Soviet player it is both risky and not very cost efficient to stay engaged.
Apparently I've been using my KV2 wrong since I tried to keep it out of armor fights despite knowing about the deflection damage.

If I have time I'll run some tests regarding projectile flight time since I am interested in how those affect the actual chance to hit if the target is moving.

...

Actually, you're right so i apologize.
...

There is nothing to apologize for, it happens to everyone from time to time.
I am pretty sure you intention where good in any case.

At least you run the numbers unlike some other people who dismiss them a useless "spreed sheets".

Do we agree that the abilities "Hull Down" and "Firing Positions!" are not "exactly the same" and that comparing them is not really meaningful in any way?

Do we agree that an Elefant and KV-2 are completely different units?

Do we agree that KV-2 is quite unique with dual role?

im not claiming that they are the same ability, they are equivalent to their faction units and one (wehr) is stronger than the other (sov)


stop acting retarded to prove a point thats not relevant, thanks and fuck off

If I have time I'll run some tests regarding projectile flight time since I am interested in how those affect the actual chance to hit if the target is moving.

This would indeed be very interesting to get more info on. The chances to land a scatter hit should be vastly different if the target manages to get at least partly out of the scatter cone before the projectile arrives.

I've tried to get an estimate for the flight time before from the projectile speed values in the editor. However, the listed speed for the KV-2 (50 m/s) is pretty small and would indicate the shell takes almost a full second to arrive at max range, which clearly isn't the case when you test it ingame. Also fiddling around with this value doesn't seem to do anything, so I guess the actual projectile speed is stored somewhere else. Maybe someone with modding experience has an idea?

im not claiming that they are the same ability, they are equivalent to their faction units and one (wehr) is stronger than the other (sov)

Yes you did claim that they are same ability, exactly the same actually, these are your words:

the kv-2 is really good, the gun takes a while to fire


but the only, ONLY complaint you can have on the kv-2 is that it gets punished for siege mode, but the exact same ability (hulldown) in jaeger armor does not. You get ~5 seconds of wind down time when de-sieging and iirc a large received accuracy penalty, but the hulldown ability lets tanks instantly go mobile

KV-2 is weak during transition from siege mode to tank by design and for very good reasons. It used to get even more penalties

In siege mode it has superior range of 70-80

It can avoid counter fire by firing behind shot blockers

It fire a single powerful type of munition that will deal lots of damage to both soft and hard targets

It comes with a turret

Even if flanked it can fight vs diving tanks including Panther

stop acting retarded to prove a point thats not relevant, thanks and fuck off

This part is rather hilarious.

You are the one that brought Ostheer's "hulldown" to this thread (post #5) and continued to rant about hulldown (and spotting scopes) (post #19) and when I pointed to you that it irrelevant (post 23) you are now trying to pin it on me. From that start I have pointed out that these abilities are not the same and have pointed out that "hulldown" and Elefant are not relevant to KV-2.

Than again you seem to like to rant about everything allied being up and everything allied being op regardless of what the thread is about and now you also seem to blame other for your wrongdoings.

Can you pls stop with forum warrior attitude and pls stop with the profanities?

(edited)

These ability are NOT "exactly the same" and actually their quite different:

Ostheer:
Name: "Hull Down"
Duration: None
Cost: Free
-25% received damage.
+25% weapon range.
Vehicle can't move.

KV-2
Name: "Firing Positions!"
Duration: Toggle Ability
Cost: Free
+30 maximum range. (+75% weapon range)
+25 minimum range.
KV-2 is immobile in siege mode.


One one is doctrinal ability taking up a slot and the other is ability always available to the specific unit.

There is no "received accuracy penalty" it has been patched out around three years ago.

Small nitpick here... The kv-2 is also doctrinal and takes up a slot. I think siege mode is more or less fine, since it gives you an ISU that can shoot over shot blockers, but it's as, if not more exclusive than hull down.

Small nitpick here... The kv-2 is also doctrinal and takes up a slot. I think siege mode is more or less fine, since it gives you an ISU that can shoot over shot blockers, but it's as, if not more exclusive than hull down.

Point here is not if it exclusive or not or even which is more useful/powerful.

The point here that they are simply not "exactly the same" and direct comparison between the two is not really relevant.

Point here is not if it exclusive or not or even which is more useful/powerful.

The point here that they are simply not "exactly the same" and direct comparison between the two is not really relevant.

derailing discussion with a retarded point to prove, classical


the basis of hulldown & siege mode >>> immobilizing their respective tanks for benefit

and it just so happens that hulldown can, in fact, be considered better with the uses it can get

derailing discussion with a retarded point to prove, classical

That is an exact description of your own post, which is the same a rant over and over again everything axis is op and everything allied is UP.

the kv-2 is really good, the gun takes a while to fire


but the only, ONLY complaint you can have on the kv-2 is that it gets punished for siege mode, but the exact same ability (hulldown) in jaeger armor does not. You get ~5 seconds of wind down time when de-sieging and iirc a large received accuracy penalty, but the hulldown ability lets tanks instantly go mobile

You brought "hull down" into this debate and you are keep the one that keep talking about it, so do not try to blame me for it.

the basis of hulldown & siege mode >>> immobilizing their respective tanks for benefit

and it just so happens that hulldown can, in fact, be considered better with the uses it can get

And as I have pointed out to you already the KV-2 is meant to vulnerable during transition since it can take even a if it tries do dive Panther 1vs1 so the comparison is simply off mark and basically a rant.

Aye the siege mode is ok being a drawback now that the tank is actually formidable outside of the mode. As a mobile tank the kv-2 is actually quite capable and it's inspire ability is really good AND buffs allied infantry as well. The siege mode funny enough inst for fighting a dug in enemy so much as digging in yourself, and if you support it properly the long swap out time won't be a huge issue. Great tank, good ability. He'll GREAT ability because it's got a niche and a drawback.that gets bonus points for me because you have to think to use it.

Aye the siege mode is ok being a drawback now that the tank is actually formidable outside of the mode. As a mobile tank the kv-2 is actually quite capable and it's inspire ability is really good AND buffs allied infantry as well. The siege mode funny enough inst for fighting a dug in enemy so much as digging in yourself, and if you support it properly the long swap out time won't be a huge issue. Great tank, good ability. He'll GREAT ability because it's got a niche and a drawback.that gets bonus points for me because you have to think to use it.

True post - nothing else needs to be said other than this

Kv2 is an ISU with a turret minus the range + tons of deflection damage. I can't say that Siege mod is very useful, unless you 100% sure that you won't be punished and the guy is AFK with his units. Also works if you are able park it behind some shot blocker and camp the VP, like on Eindhoven Country + it has tons of scatter. The tank is superb, but I'm not a fan of the ability. I would not pick it in team games tho, even in 2v2. If you intend on using the ranged ability, just pick the ISU. Much more convenient.
Imo KV2 is the closest Allies have to KT.

Kv2 is an ISU with a turret minus the range + tons of deflection damage. I can't say that Siege mod is very useful, unless you 100% sure that you won't be punished and the guy is AFK with his units. Also works if you are able park it behind some shot blocker and camp the VP, like on Eindhoven Country + it has tons of scatter. The tank is superb, but I'm not a fan of the ability. I would not pick it in team games tho, even in 2v2. If you intend on using the ranged ability, just pick the ISU. Much more convenient.
Imo KV2 is the closest Allies have to KT.

The kv-2 siege mode lets you setup a long range artillery piece that can hit whatever whenever

While its obviously not useful in offensive situations, it is great to let you dig in and destroy squads that are approaching. Sprinkle a lot of zis guns around, or SU-85s if you got the fuel, infantry in cover, some mines in your flanks (or spots where you can be rushed from). You make a defense that's really difficult to break without diving the kv-2


Its a beautiful tank and makes the is-2 obsolete, the kv-2 works in team mode well enough to be viable - siege mode lets you be useful against heavy TDs as you don't get in their range to do your damage

Teardown should be instant on the KV-2. Another case of Axis getting prototyping changes first (less restricting hull down) and then equal Allied units not getting the same buff.

Although I can overlook this one since its a really obscure example. Halftrack healing and Sturmtiger buff were much worse.

Teardown should be instant on the KV-2. Another case of Axis getting prototyping changes first (less restricting hull down) and then equal Allied units not getting the same buff.

Can we give it rest with "conspiracy theories", seriously now?

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Although I can overlook this one since its a really obscure example. Halftrack healing and Sturmtiger buff were much worse.

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Its a beautiful tank and makes the is-2 obsolete, the kv-2 works in team mode well enough to be viable - siege mode lets you be useful against heavy TDs as you don't get in their range to do your damage

pretty much the same as ISU plus 10 range plus minus immobile during shoting. You can exploit the opponent for so long, until he catches you with your pants dawn during a panther dive. Imo too much drawbacks. I could see that work, if SOV had pak43 alternative (or theoretically a convenient UKF ally)

I'd say both IS2 and Kv2 has 2 good commanders, but the is2 has the "get the F of my lawn" loiter, radio intercept and t34-85 for the mid game, also IS2 is considerably more responsive. KV2 has the windustry lady for fast repairs, resource trucks, KV8 and pretty fat AOE on the heavy tank.

Maybe I'm sleeping on the ability, but it is extremely situational and requires too much setup to be executed. Not saying it is useless, but a strat for the KV2 long range setup has too many holes, like lacking mid game power (if you skip t34) and too much AT (I suppose you also skip KV8, since you personally don't like the tank). Perhaps it may work if you survive til lategame and manage to get your perfect "snowball" build, but I haven't seen those. And if the guy just backs off a little, you have to redeploy and pray that the Axis guy is not tryhard enough to pick a heavy TD commander.

ISU is much more convenient in this regard: "Mark target", guards and sneaky AT. AI strafe is also pretty decent.

pretty much the same as ISU plus 10 range plus minus immobile during shoting. You can exploit the opponent for so long, until he catches you with your pants dawn during a panther dive. Imo too much drawbacks. I could see that work, if SOV had pak43 alternative (or theoretically a convenient UKF ally)

I'd say both IS2 and Kv2 has 2 good commanders, but the is2 has the "get the F of my lawn" loiter, radio intercept and t34-85 for the mid game, also IS2 is considerably more responsive. KV2 has the windustry lady for fast repairs, resource trucks, KV8 and pretty fat AOE on the heavy tank.

Maybe I'm sleeping on the ability, but it is extremely situational and requires too much setup to be executed. Not saying it is useless, but a strat for the KV2 long range setup has too many holes, like lacking mid game power (if you skip t34) and too much AT (I suppose you also skip KV8, since you personally don't like the tank). Perhaps it may work if you survive til lategame and manage to get your perfect "snowball" build, but I haven't seen those. And if the guy just backs off a little, you have to redeploy and pray that the Axis guy is not tryhard enough to pick a heavy TD commander.

ISU is much more convenient in this regard: "Mark target", guards and sneaky AT. AI strafe is also pretty decent.

Having a T34-85 is a big bonus though. It's probably the best doctrinal medium tank, given it's performance/price. Not only that, but it can be used in the same way the Panthers can, in teamgame lategame: Hail Mary push. You could do it with a Comet, but given it's price and AI power, you won't get far. Sure it will bounce a few more shots than the T34-85 but still...
That's one massive argument in favor of ISU if you ask me. Of course, your arguments concerning KV2 chunkiness and the fact that it comes with another AI heavy tank, the KV8, renders the commander generally unfavorable.