105mm Sherman and Brummbar should be less durable

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2022, 14:57 PMHannibal

Please test before you make such claims. Brummbar needs 30 vet0 Conscripts + some damage to get vet1. But that number is quite far off of a real game, since infantry is vetted at this point. Also UKF and USF exist with much more valuable infantry.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2022, 14:57 PMHannibal

He is talking about the 60 range of the barrage as he states in the same sentence.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2022, 16:26 PMVipper

XP value for conscript is 40 XP per entity
Xp value for Brumbar according https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H5z6szCfhmAAnDprmgwLzc-viZg4HPhKZshNLErvnck/edit#gid=1644472724 is 2040 so my number as to model needing to be killed should be corrected.

Did you kill 30 conscript or did you also damage them because then you would be awarded XP twice for both killing and damaging.

At what timing is zis barrage available and at what timing is the brumbar barrage available?

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2022, 16:26 PMVipper

"The range buff should have come with a rof nerf on the barrage imo."

He is clearly talking about an (imaginary) range buff and ROF nerf on the a barrage would make it pointless vs anything that can move since the ROF of brumbar's autofire is 8.5.

Barrages are separate abilities that come with separate stats than autofire.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2022, 16:26 PMVipper

But I am not sure what you want to debate, in your opinion should one be comparing the zis barrage with Brumbar barrage?

In your opinion the zis barrage is up?

My point is pretty simply comparing the Zis barrage with Brumbar barrage is does not say much for either ability.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2022, 18:16 PMHannibal

Vipper, I tested it.
You need to kill off 5 vet0 Conscript squads and you are super close to vet1. That's 30 kills plus another shot at the sixth squad. Let it be 32 kills then if we want to account for the pure HP damage giving XP. Doesn't defeat my point in saying that killing 30 Conscripts in game are enough for vet1, nor does it defeat my point about vetted Conscripts when the Brummbar hits the field, nor the argument about USF and UKF.

If you don't believe it, please test it and report back.

I am fairly sure you misunderstand him. He is talking about the extended 60 range of the BBB. Is "buff" the 100% correct word for that? No, but in the context of the whole paragraph, I understand the BBB's extended range. But maybe Mr. Carmine can clarify.


I have no idea what you are on about. I did not debate anything and I do not intend to discuss the ZiS barrage since it is not the topic of this thread. I merely made a statement where I think you misunderstood another user to help keep the discussion productive and on track.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2022, 18:16 PMHannibal

I am fairly sure you misunderstand him. He is talking about the extended 60 range of the BBB. Is "buff" the 100% correct word for that? No, but in the context of the whole paragraph, I understand the BBB's extended range. But maybe Mr. Carmine can clarify.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2022, 08:33 AMMr Carmine

The brumbar regurarly kills more then one model in a single shot as well as damaging quite a few as well. Ofcourse when it hits.

The bbb a while back had less range then currently. It made the ability quite underwelming.
I dont know if the intervall between rounds in the bbb is the the same as then but imo when the range was shorte, afaik the same as the regular shell (45) the low intervall made sense. The brumbar was mostly in range of dedicated at units.

Right now it can fire the bbb from 60 range with imo to low interval. For 30 munition (i was under the assumption it was 15 before) while far deadlier for 5 muni difference it to cheap imo. There are abilities as deadly or close wich cost more and are easier to stop/counteract.

You often hear that wiping abilities are bad for the game, yet usualy when it involves late game units from axis mostly but also allies sometimes its fine when they hit so hard that vetted units get wrecked in a single shot or seconds.

Jump back to quoted post8 Jan 2022, 11:35 AMSander93

ATGs are not meant to be the counter to a T4 150 fuel heavy AI/breakthrough vehicle. TDs and tanks are what counter it, not infantry based AT.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2022, 10:46 AMVipper

Brumbar's barrage has the same range since it was introduced there has been no buff to the barrages range.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2022, 16:17 PMMr Carmine

I distincly remember some people complaining that bbb was usseles because they reduced they range of the ability. And it got reversed.

I could have misread that, or just be plain wrong. If so my apologies.

But it doesnt change my opinion the bbb is to good for its cost and or the unit its on. Its to punishing fo tw atm.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2022, 16:31 PMVipper

You can find the change log here and check for the patches Brumbar got.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/4307/coh2-changelog

When it comes to barrage there mostly nerfs

The ability might or might not be "to good for its cost" (it used to be free) but comparison with Zis barrage are not really helpful in anyway and seem more like rant about allied things being up and axis things being op than anything else.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2022, 09:01 AMMr Carmine

This is not a rant about allied up. I have little that i think is up esp factions as a whole. There is plenty to fill the gaps left by certain faction traits with doctrines or other units coverings those gaps.

The comparison was made to illustrate that certain abilities while simaler to others except timing wise are fine while others who are weaker are deemed op.

The logic with the zis barrage nerf was i left little time to react for the receiving player. The bbb leaves even less time to react but is fine somehow for 5 muni more.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2022, 14:06 PMKatukov

brummbar ability: bombard a targeted area with HE shells, counters team weapons (also fucking outranges and counters them, woah)

zis-3 barrage ability: bombard a targeted area with HE shells, outranging and countering team weapons


"but they're not the same" the premise of the ability and how it works is the exact fucking same


why is this a debate?

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2022, 10:16 AMVipper

The differences between a Brummbär and zis and their abilities is not simply "time wise".

In addition that is pretty common in the game units that become available later get better tools, because else there would be little reason to tech. For instance elite grenades are better than normal grenades.

The comparison is not helpful in anyway especially since there are unit/abilities that far closer to the Brummbär to compare with. Choosing the specific comparison is an indication that someone does not really have any serious argument and makes an arbitrary comparison to support his weak case.

Or you can even run some tests and see how probable is to get a wipe with barrage
or
even better use the unit yourself and see how many kill you can get in an actual game by using the barrage.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2022, 16:46 PMMr Carmine

You dont have to explain the game design. My point isent weak non serious or arbatrery just because you dont agree.

And stating i use specifiek comparisons to hide something like a weak argument is quite rich, its something you are quite familier with. So please stop there. And i will stop here as well.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2022, 16:46 PMMr Carmine

The game has a history or nerfing units or abilities specificly because the potential wipe power was to big for their timing. This includes the late game.
So the point you made that late game is basicly an excuse for having arguably to strong abilities is false.

Even without the bbb the brumbar is a very good vehicle. That 150 fuel doesnt just pay for its gun.

Feel free to respond or not. We will have to agree to disagree i think.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2022, 14:14 PMVipper

Ml-20 bombards a targeted area with HE shells, counters team weapons
Calliope bombards a targeted area with HE shells, counters team weapons
B-4 bombards a targeted area with HE shells, counters team weapons

There are unit that similar to the Brumbar in role and Zis is simply not one of them.
The performance of the bunker busting barrage has really nothing to do with performance of the zis barrage.

The argument is even sillier than claiming that light gammon bomb should be nerfed because it is better than mills bomb.

If you do not like the debate I suggest you don't take part in it.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2022, 17:31 PMVipper

PLS leave personal comments out of it.

The comparison of zis and brumbar and their abilities is simply bad but you entitled to a different opinion.

The argument that something that comes later is better than something is available right at the start of the game is very weak since it applies to many units and their abilities.

If you argument is that Brumbar is too good in wiping things feel free to present your case (you should thing like the scatter tool, stats, test, replays) just leave zis out of it.

My suggestion is to look a bit deeper though because you wrong about the munition cost and the range buff.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2022, 19:50 PMKatukov

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Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2022, 19:53 PMMr Carmine

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